Post Game Rule Discussion

HoI2: Arsenal of Democracy. Home of the former (now legendary!) Tuesday Pacific game.

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pedal2000
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Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52306Post pedal2000
Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:28 am

This thread is for people to leave posts regarding rules which they feel should be brought up for discussion - or for new rules/ideas they'd like the group to consider at the end of the current session.

DO NOT MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT FOR OR AGAINST A PARTICULAR RULE IN THIS THREAD.

This thread is ONLY for listing the rules you wish to see discussed at the end to help us remember everything! Any Off topic posts will be edited or removed!

El Duck
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52406Post El Duck
Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:26 pm

I think we need to have a discussion on the US enty. Events are happening in our current game that no one expected and they should have some inpact on the US entry. The creation of Scandinavia, the allied intervention in Spain, the Japanese DOW on the Allies, the odd Czech selection etc seem to require a more realistic US entry model.

hugolin
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52417Post hugolin
Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:10 pm

Yeah it's a tricky question.

US entry is one thing, but we also have to remember that historically there were no USA entry to war. Japan DOWed the USA relatively late, in Dec '41.

By then the USA were far from going all-out for war, but they already engaged in several belligerent moves (represented by 'events' in AoD). Attacking the Axis subs and ships, gift of 50 DDs to UK, Leand Lease to UK and USSR, occupying Iceland are but a few of the things the USA did in support of the Allies/Comintern.

I looked at the USA's event file, things like Lend Lease, Embargo, Gear Ups, etc. are unique in-game mechanisms to represent the US progressive path to total war.

'Total war' was not declared by the USA. Jan 1st 42 is abstract. Perhaps we can try next game the Belligerence system?
"Defending like Chiang, attacking like Il Douche, Conquering like... Emperor Cheeto, Emperor of the Sino-Japanese Empire of the peaceful sun of the Eastern horizon"

pedal2000
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52646Post pedal2000
Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:45 am

-shrugs-

I actually don't think the US entry is obscure for our current game. Though we can look at it, consider this: the Allies have 'rescued' at least 30 French divisions, probably a good 5-10 from Poland, and also have Spain, Greece, Portugal as ahistorical Allies. Considering most or all of these are going to go British at some point or another, and at least the French and Polish divisions are fairly high quality, I think Cougy and Gogo are just overreacting. We can crack the saves and see the numbers but I would be fairly surprised if the game was unbalanced at the moment.

As for 'on-topic' I'd like to/am going to raise the issue of inheriting Divisions again, and for a human playing France as both provide significant advantages to the Allies.

sabbath
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52650Post sabbath
Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:55 am

I have always been strongly against human France.
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cougy
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52654Post cougy
Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:30 am

I am not sure what "cracking save" mean, but I do not like the sound of it. I dont wish to jump to a conclusion, but does that mean someone loads up the save as another country? If so I am totally against it while the game is active. I mean if a 3rd party like Jones wish to load and comment that is fine.

As for the human control France I am on the fence, in all reality in the current game how has the a human france changed anything? The war started in late August of 39 and you Vichy'd them by end of Nov...So that was 3 months. Not only that but Poland will fall by Dec 39. So 3 to 4 months to conquor both France and Poland, where as in history it took the Germans almost 10 months to do the same, so you are ahead of the game.

As for Expo forces...in the current game if I didnt have access to some French, Polish, whomever forces I would have in the realm of 30 to 40 total division to fight Germany, Italy, Japan, and friends. That is not only impossible to completely silly to consider. Not only that but I have only taken units to remain competitive against the forces of the Axis. Not only did you get the entire Czech army, which based on the polish and french invasion is dang near 30 inf div and at least 2 tanks.

That in combination with all the other Axis buddies (Rom, Bul, Hun, Fin) of whom Germany gets the ENTIRE armies of it is only fair to allow the Allies to utilize the same. If we make a rule that the Allies cant use their friends as they see if or the computer controls them, than the same rule must apply to the Axis.

sabbath
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52657Post sabbath
Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:44 am

All this talk of "Balance" and unit counts kind of makes me want to throw up in my mouth.

This still isn't starcraft though a few people here seem to want it to be.

The natural course of a mostly historic war involves strategic situations dictated by the English Channel, oceans, the vastness of USSR, and air power. These realities as well as org differences make unit counts completely irrelevant.
For example UK can hold out nearly indefinitely on its island until USA comes in with only a handful of divisions. USSR too can hold out quite a long time with the vast expanses of bad terrain, as shown in Friday when Nixon was squeezed to a thin shard from both sides and still lived.
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pedal2000
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52658Post pedal2000
Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:21 am

cougy wrote:I am not sure what "cracking save" mean, but I do not like the sound of it.
What I mean is once the game is over, we can go back and look at various dates and see where things were. Sorry, I meant "crack the saves once the game is over" as this is a thread for areas of discussion post game! My bad in not making that clear the first time!
As for the human control France I am on the fence, in all reality in the current game how has the a human france changed anything? The war started in late August of 39 and you Vichy'd them by end of Nov...So that was 3 months. Not only that but Poland will fall by Dec 39. So 3 to 4 months to conquor both France and Poland, where as in history it took the Germans almost 10 months to do the same, so you are ahead of the game.
Well Historically, Germany didn't even attack Belgium until whenever. In this case, Belgium was the start of the war. While I'm ahead of the Historical timeline, I also have to plow through Spain which is where the Allies are focusing their defense. It's hardly fair to say "You plowed France and Poland quickly" when in truth you guys didn't really aim to ever defend them. If you'd all in'd on France I think you could've slowed me down or even held me much more than you did.

In terms of Exp Forces, I just think it's ridiculous that the more I take, the more powerful the Allies become - not less. Rather than seeing a decrease in allied divisions, it's essentially like I'm doing them massive favours, removing the supply costs of all the poop divisions and letting them focus their IC on a dozen high quality ones for each country. I'm not against Exp Forces, but the inheritance thing is nonsense in the current state IMO.

It isn't a sheer numbers thing, it's basically a mixture of balance and fairness. The Axis picks up an army from X country through an Alliance - but those 30 divisions couldn't stand up to the twelve saved from France.

As for the Human player. I guess partially I mean regarding Vichy etc. But in truth Gogo helped quite a bit. If France had been AI run, I would've taken it in a month at most? Spamming Militia is a ridiculously viable strat to buy time which is all the Allies need. For a while I felt like I was in China, not France! :lol:

El Duck
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52660Post El Duck
Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:47 am

After a lot of thinking about some points Huggy made, I did a complete 180 on EX forces during the discussions prior to the start of our present game. I use to think that anything should be allowed regarding EX forces but I have come to think that they should not be allowed at all. MC is fine but no EX forces. It is far to late for this game but I think that should be the rule for the future.

gogopher
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52663Post gogopher
Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:04 pm

and also have Spain, Greece, Portugal as ahistorical Allies
well greece of course was actually an ally in ww2...portugal allowed the allies to use its ports to base ships out to hunt subs...so ahistoric no...or at least no more ahistoric than czech, hungary, romania joining the axis in 38/39 or japan going to war with the allies in 39 and the usa waiting like a lamb to the slaughter to be invaded...
In terms of Exp Forces, I just think it's ridiculous that the more I take, the more powerful the Allies become - not less. Rather than seeing a decrease in allied divisions, it's essentially like I'm doing them massive favours, removing the supply costs of all the poop divisions and letting them focus their IC on a dozen high quality ones for each country. I'm not against Exp Forces, but the inheritance thing is nonsense in the current state IMO.
completely false: the more u take the weaker we become: when a country falls all its ability to create new units...pay for its current units...and create supplies...goes away...the uk now begins to shoulder the burden more and more crushing its economy to build new and better units...and as i stated in the expo force discussion u cannot have expo forces without allowing inherited forces...they are one in the same...eliminating inherited forces simply rewards germany and punishes everyone else
As for the Human player. I guess partially I mean regarding Vichy etc. But in truth Gogo helped quite a bit. If France had been AI run, I would've taken it in a month at most? Spamming Militia is a ridiculously viable strat to buy time which is all the Allies need. For a while I felt like I was in China, not France!
there is nothing i could have done differently in france to save it...nothing in the allies arsenal at the start of the game is going to stop german tanks and u had at least 20 so far as i could tell...and at least 3-6 brand new t3 medium tanks and more than one czech tank...had i defended with more units in france i would have just lost more units...and to be fair the milita was never intended to stop u it was meant to garrison the maginot line...we the allies screwed up bringing belguim in the war...and thus i had to redeploy the militia to cover areas the belguims were going to be guarding...

a human france neither adds nor detracts from the conquest of the allies...in the end u conq france before jun of 1940 which means u are considerably ahead of schedule...poland will hold out unitl 1940 but all in all u are 6mntsh ahead of schedule and most likely able to invade russia...and lets not forget scandanavia and yugoslavia...some of the territory u conq didnt fall until 1941...so i dont see what ur concern is atm
allied intervention in Spain
the allies only intervened in spain after the axis conq and puppeted scandanavia and finland...that was a reactive move and no premeditated...the axis dont get to have the luxury of being the only nations moving outside of historic circles...had pedal played historic we would have done so ourselves...in fact we not only reacted we conq spain as expediantly as we could...we could have artificially delayed to remain at war or herded nat spainish units to ensure they became repubs at conquest...neither of which we did...it cost us significant amounts of ic's in terms of repair costs to conq spain...and in the end was completely necessary in light of axis moves...the same goes for poland and greece...and we will continue to move more and more outside of historic circles since japan invaded us 3 full years early...

gogopher
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52664Post gogopher
Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:14 pm

in short the game is moving relatively fine so far as i can tell...the axis have huge territorial gains far outpacing history..the allies are in the process of making this a true world war....we wanted sandbox and we have gotten it...cherry picking certain rules simply and only benifits certain factions and is completely not needed...either we impose strict rules, date, and criteria across the board to ensure an exact ww2 experience or we go sandbox...and if u want less ahistoric things play the 39 or 41 scen

the 36/38 scen simply allow too much freedom to be limiting and imposing rules on pet likes and dislikes...and do try and remember all that we have done as the allies has been done in the last two games i have followed and in both of those games the axis either won the game (with the soviets) or were on the verge of winning or at least stalemating...things in short seem to be working fine with the exception of the usa intervention...the much larger issue in my mind

forcing the usa to have a timetable once the japanese dow the allies is simply setting them up for slaughter...the japanese have the luxury now of conq all of the pacific...getting advance bases and positioning air power and fleets then attacking the completely defensless usa at anytime...as an added bonuse they are getting blueprints for tech from germany im sure...and the sole power left to defend the entire globe against 3 major powers is the UK?...this is a serious issue and one i think will in the end destroy this game...and dont bring up china...china never fell and judging from last sessions dialogue i doubt ever will since it appears hugy and sabbath have made some sort of NA pact to simply hold the line...thus freeing japan to attack the UK with everything it has...and japan has all ready puppetted a very nice nation which im sure is building units and giving japan resources...

sabbath
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52668Post sabbath
Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:57 pm

pedal2000 wrote:all the poop divisions
I'm betting this is not what was originally typed :D
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pedal2000
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52671Post pedal2000
Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:20 pm

:lol: Damn Filter.

We can argue our respective viewpoints post game, this is mostly aiming to keep track of issues people would like to raise at the end, either new ones or current rule sets.

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Jones
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52672Post Jones
Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:22 pm

pedal2000 wrote::lol: Damn Filter.
It is possible to turn the filter off in your profile. By default it is on for everyone but you may choose to see the darn raw unfiltered emotional poop if you like.
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" - William Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar"

pedal2000
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Re: Post Game Rule Discussion

Post: # 52675Post pedal2000
Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:26 pm

:lol: Nah it's more hilarious with it on.

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