Post Game Rule Discussion

[hugolin]

forcing the usa to have a timetable once the japanese dow the allies is simply setting them up for slaughter...the japanese have the luxury now of conq all of the pacific...

'All' is a big word! But yes, the Allies islands possessions are vulnerable, however

and dont bring up china..

Well yes, I have to bring up China! Because I wanted, for a change, to not do a 'China first' game.

I have some experience with China, at the moment it's upgrading, steadily pumping out INF, getting first increasingly harder to conquer, and second, developing its offensive capacity. I will have to pay the piper down the road. I wanted to strike early against the allies as much as leaving China in the game, because China IMO provided a great enjoyable experience. Sooner than later, China will have developed an offensive capability, and will start to attack. Whenever you guys whine about the early DOW, you have to see it isn't a win-win, it's a tradeoff: I stalled China to strike where it's soft, but the Chinese problem is left still entirely to be dealt with. This will come back to me, China will hatch into a monster, you wait and see!

china never fell and judging from last sessions dialogue i doubt ever will since it appears hugy and sabbath have made some sort of NA pact to simply hold the line.

There's no NA pact, just a quiet front. China was costing me a fortune in supplies and MP. Sab has conducted a very good defence of China, so I realized I need to change strategy...

[sabbath]

There is definitely no pact, although I said to several people I would consider peace, none was offered to me.

China as noted is in no position to move out, we are happy to sit around stack babies to make defensive fortifications.

[pedal2000]

Spanish/Greek/Portuguese deployment on the May 29th save. Just curiosity why all we see on all our fronts and on all the beaches are British flags.

[sabbath]

For next game: I believe I have revised my position on exp forces. As long as we are on 1.07, and the exp-forces-becoming-naturalized-on-reload issue exists, we should probably outlaw exp forces. The org difference due to doctrines just makes too big of a difference.

[hugolin]

Yes, bravo!
Also I like to keep the units 'national' for flavour. You know, the Italian/Romanian guarding the flanks at Stalingrad, the Italian with their lower ORG, the small but tough British Army with gazillions flag minors helping... etc. Lower ORG units would support the core strong ones, it makes for variety, as opposed to every units become strong.

[cougy]

Spanish/Greek/Portuguese deployment on the May 29th save. Just curiosity why all we see on all our fronts and on all the beaches are British flags.

One of my favorite quotes from the WW2-era is from President Roosevelt when asked by a reporter where the planes of the Doolittle Raid originated. FDR's reply was, "They came from our secret base at Shangri-La."

On a more serious side to address your "current game question" in the "post-game discussion" thread. The majority of Spanish & Portuguese units have been rendered into smears beneath jack-boots and panzer treads all the way from France to the Iberian Peninsula; making their valiant stands for FREEDOM. Around 4 or 5 Portuguese died to Japanese bayonets while defending New Zealand. While Greeks, they died laughing to death while fighting the military "might" of Italy in Greece.

The remaining forces of Spain, Greece, and Portugal are, to steal a line from FDR, based in Shangri-La.

Oh also, 1 Spanish cavalry division did die while making his rather successful run to the Ruhr. But you knew that one. I remember you even called it as "a Spanish cav div under an English flag" before you ever fought or attacked the unit; Interesting. Guess Wernher von Braun skipped advance computing machines and went straight to spy satellites research.

[pedal2000]

Alright, -shrugs- I still would like to know. Republican Spain had something in the neighbourhood of 30 divisions I believe before joining you? I can account for between 6-15 mentally. Just curious where the other 15 have ended up. Just seems like there's a substantial number of British divisions around. I wasn't asking a specific question, like I said I just want to know. I know we killed 6 divisions in Greece. I also know we saw Allied Naval Activity around and assume you retreated the rest of their forces. Similarly, between what I killed in France and Northern Spain, I'd say a substantial Spanish force(12+?) must still exist. Just curious where they are, and if they are being converted, why because that would obviously be a more significant impact on a nation's bottom line than the minor org gain we were looking at when we discussed Exp. Forces.

Not looking for specific numbers now, obviously. That's why I was making a note in the thread here.

As for the Spanish Calvary, Counters, though I hate them, do provide the unit type; Once the game is over feel free to load up the Jan 30th save of Germany, swap to Counters, and reference http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/sho ... r-counters

It'll tell you exactly what type of division you have there. Add on the fact that you have two other divisions of Spanish/Portugese flags there, and the fact we had fought divisions earlier, from those countries IIRC, under your exp. force flag and that I was not only raging ( ) but tired and c'est la vie. I actually think I meant all three were Spanish divisions Exp forced to Britain but TBH I can't remember anymore.

Plus, since I assume you're indirectly accusing me of looking at the Saves, if I was doing that - I'd hope I'd be doing a lot better than I am. But I'll get work on that spy sat tech, sounds useful

[cougy]

I guess in a round about when I was, which I now apologize for. I was unaware that counters allowed you to see that much information about a particular unit, I may have to consider using them.

[pedal2000]

Yeah, I use sprites 99% of the time I just prefer them. Counters are ugly. I only use them when I need to see that info. TBH I wish sprites displayed a similar amount of info. Either way apology accepted no harm no foul.

[sabbath]

Just curious, approximately how many UK divisions are ones that were converted by the known issue of the EXP-forces-becoming-naturalized-to-that-country-on-reload-bug? (And not due to annexation).

I wonder if it is fixed in 1.08, let me go look at the beta notes. :\

[hugolin]

We had a healthy discussion about XP prior to this game, and we talked about the potential, nor for abuse, which is too strong, but for 'game unbalancing'. Glad to see we're starting to agree. Aryan Bulgarian units with 82 ORG and stuff like that...
If I had played allies, I was intent to demonstrate the exploit this rule opened. Great to see it done from all side. In Japan, FYI, I don't do XP.

[gogopher]

to address the spainish and port divs...since i have been commanding them the entire way i can say that the majority of them have been destroyed or deployed to other theaters on beaches...the vast majority were destroyed...i wont go into numbers since the game is still on-going but very few have been converted by whatever means to a UK flag...there are still between 6-15 in spain u just dont see them flagged much because they are/were in rear areas...most of the greeks either died or were converted via transport or strat redeploy...the rest of the countries u conq didnt give us squat (ausies gave us a poop fleet, and NZ gave us 1 garrison div)...the absolute vast majority of the poles died in poland (only the elite (lol) units left and eventually became brit)....same with the french...the majority (vast majority) of the french died in france

all in all we have benifited from expo forces far less than germany...by my count from poland and france and my pre-italian war spy destoryers u must be around 200-250 total divs (not counting the japs since i dont have any accurate info on them since hugy seems to be using the same divs for various things making a count hard to do)...the majority of those are most likely minors or italians...i imagine germany has at most 80 divs...u outnumber us by a large margin...again i wont go into numbers since the game is ongoing...

so in short i think that with the issues people seem to be having regarding expo forces readdressing the issue is a good idea...after this game...not during as it will cause unneccasary stress to all involved...

but all that being said i dont understand the hype or the flak we are getting with regards to our strat or expo forces in general...u are playing germany and doing exceptionally well...im not sure what u want...i mean u conq france in like 3wks and poland in the same time (well vov in warsaw took a while but the country was for all purposes dead in a few weeks)...then u proceeded to conq spain and port...in what 2wks?...if we didnt have access to expo forces u would be in london by now as well as moscow...the fact u have done as well as u have is proof that expo is benifiting u more than the allies...and if u think that u should be in london at this point of the game u really need to readdress what the germans should be able to do...the issue isnt expo forces its the scen...the 38scen is completely axis favored from the obscene manpower u have access to...to the complete crap armies the allies have vs the germans....add a completely random czech alliance and the fact it is only may of 40 (france didnt fall till june of 40...lets not get into yugo, scandanavia, minors, and a japanese dow all which are greatly ahead of schedule) and u should be ecstatic about ur preformance not lamblasting us for barely surviving

[hugolin]

Beware Pedal's psychological warfare!

[gogopher]

to clarify a question that was asked by pedal in game:

why so many british flaged units?...well that is easy...poles flagged after annexation...greeks flagged after either strat redepoyment or naval transport...vichy units flagged after they (randomly by the AI) strat deployed from north africa to london and alexandria while they were loaded on transports...spainish units are almost all dead...same with the Portuguese...french units flagged either upon strat redeployment or naval transport though some have retainted their french flags...some french planes, ships, and land forces were sold to the UK via diplomacy

i have no idea why such a big deal is being made about this...these situations are well known bugs and have a zero net impact on our forces...those divs were all upgraded to british standards and fighting under british doctrines...now they have to be reinforced using british manpower...which as always is in short supply...

as to numbers:

i refuse to go into allied troop strenth as the game is ongoing...but i will answer this much...we by my best count are heavily outnumbered by the axis...most likely at a two-to-one margin (although this may be somewhat bogus as i will not confirm our strength...no more bogus then pedal insisting he is outnumbered by us)...we did gain 15+ vichy divs and a large number of aircraft after the axis inexplicably dow'd them after making vichy...im sure there was a valid strat in that somehow...and before u complain about making vichy in the first place if u had not i would by now be running china and had i done so i would have promptly joined the allies and hugy would have been in serious trouble (not to mention forming vichy is the only honorable option by germany imho)

as to spain:

why u did not wall us off in spain with vichy france remains a mystery to us (since i intentionally selected the civilian government and thus had NO way of dowing the vichy until 44 (if i moved my gov sliders)...that u are bogged down in spain and not sitting in moscow at this time is beyond me...any problems u will be facing once the usa enters the war or if and when the soviets attack u is of ur making...

or strategy:

that we chose to give ground in both france and spain and defend only gibralter is a strat we have chosen to employ...questioning that strat is not for the axis to do...we ensured that u would take france to ensure that u had a chance in the ussr and that the game could progress in a semi-historic fashion (never mind we had zero chance to hold france and never mind we allowed u to destroy the vast majority of the french army in france)...we were completely content to sit in spain and wait for the usa before even vaguely considering to attack u...any issues u have with the soviets or an early usa entry is of the axis making...although the situation in spain is hardly decided and still is heavily favoring u (not-with-standing my propaganda posting)

summation:

since this game is still ongoing and still extremely heavily favors the axis i refuse to go into more details...i would admonish u to be less concerned with our strat and our forces...and be more concerned with ur own...it was blind luck and a complete failure on our part that we did not take the entire rhur from u and thus cripple ur economy with our raid in force...had we known u didnt bother to defend with any troops rest assured we would have invaded with more and done so...

and since u have added over (im sure by now) 50 czech divisons to ur forces that in all other games would not be there i feel it is in bad form and gamey as hell that u are not annexing countries and complaining about our force structure and our strat...every country we gained as allies from poland and to spain and beyond was in direct response to u chosing to accept the czech event and subsequently forming scandanavia...its called quid-pro-quo...u do something outside of history so we respond...simple

this is still a good and on-going game...however if u feel that for whatever reason u cannot continue as a going concern then now is the time to open some dialogue before we spend even more time on what im sure u are considering a broken game...i want to reafirm that i wish to continue but i am willing to discuss other alternatives now (i wont be if we spend more time playing as that would be extremely unfair to both sabbath and duck who have gotten to do squat thus far)

[sabbath]

I agree that the Axis bed is of their own making regarding the Vichy/Spain situation, so they should have to lay in it.
IMHO mistake was to DOW Vichy and create a broad front with Allies when they could have just held up at Dax and made a 1 province border.

However regarding EXP forces, I am not convinced that it isn't helping Allies more than Axis. The reported Allied division counts do seem a bit ridiculous. I vote no EXP forces on any further 1.07 games.


I really hope the game will continue, as noted I have not got to do much, and especially Duck has not as he does not have the Maiden China to toy around with.