Thank you Pedal

HoI2: Arsenal of Democracy. Home of the former (now legendary!) Tuesday Pacific game.

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cougy
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Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54413Post cougy
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:32 pm

Pedal, I wanted to thank you for deleting the history in our previous saves. I would have never thought about looking there until you made a point of deleting it so it could not be read.

Sabbath you should also delete the history as it provides valuable information. For example, an invasion of Norway, offensive plans in China, diplomatic deals, or even Lobo thanking the USA for the cash deals that "will allow me to really reduce my CG and research at full speed (Lobo)." Well done sir, well done.


Oh btw, I am done with this game. Due to the obvious Axis-American Alliance, broken rules down exp/inherited forces, poor US vs. Japanese entry guidelines, and too many numerous oddities...I am done with this game and I concede defeat to the Axis.

sabbath
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54416Post sabbath
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:37 pm

First off no one should be reading the history, whether it was deleted or not. That is tantamount to loading up someone's else's country from a save.

Secondly, I admit I did give Lobo money, perhaps $300. There is nothing in the rules against trading, I confirmed with the game sponsor Pedal.

USA is now and has always been most certainly in the Allied camp, and I fully intend to restore the Democracies of the world upon my entry.
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sabbath
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54419Post sabbath
Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:58 pm

Additionally I made some deals for Rares to Germany. These I felt were beneficial to my nation and the game.

I would remind the group before such drastic measures as quitting are taken, this Game-14 was always (by group vote) a free-for-all sandbox style game, and USA is free to do what it wishes, short of joining Axis and Comintern.
Some of you may not remember the outrage of Jones betrayal of Lobo, etc. Things happen in the game and backroom deals are always going to be made. They are not meant to be made public so that people's feelings will not be hurt.

I first apologize for not deleting the history, though it should not be read either way.

I second stand by my actions and remain committed to being The Arsenal of Democracy and will cleanse the world of all opposing aggressive ideologies upon my eventual entry to this second great war.
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gogopher
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54420Post gogopher
Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:06 pm

i must support my ally in this matter regardless of any feeling otherwise...i read the same history and came to the same conclusion...in light of the axis and the usa joining forces this game is indeed over and i officially concede defeat as france..order all troops to lay down weapons and scuttle the fleet...good game fun times...next time the rules need to be much clearer and must be dedided before country selection...and country selection must be done via vote...

things like the czechs on a 1% chance joining the axis are unrepeatable and completely break any sembelence of balance...those type of things cannot be allowed....japan dow'ing the allies in 39 with no reaction from a (in the future-stably played usa) cannot be allowed...

sabbath: bullshit

sorry bro i dont buy it...lobo saying 'gee thanks now i can run my economy at a deficiet and run my research at full speed' isnt a 300 dollar trade...since i have all the saves and cougy and i concede defeat it wont be hard to crack the save and find out just how badly u were darn the allies...

and try and remember u are in the allies forums..that very fact is tacit agreement to join the allies....secretly consipiring against the allies while being in those forums is utter an complete bullshit

in the end sabbath u once again win...and the game loses...and this will be the last time i ever play with u...im not investing months of my life to play a game that u intentionally sabotage simply because u are either unstable or dont like us...whatever

so i really hope im wrong and when i crack the save i dont find the germans with 0000's of dollars and the italians with no more than 300...but i dont bet on it...i imagine i will find all the axis powers running at CG deficits and full research...so keep ur bullshit in the bin where it belongs

sabbath
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54423Post sabbath
Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:11 pm

Perhaps you should wait for some sort of group response before you look at further information you are not supposed to look at.
The allied forum is completely silent and has been for the entire game, there is no private information there.

I did nothing more than make trade deals for Rares and Cash with other nations as allowed for in the game's ruleset that was agreed upon by yourself, Cougy and everyone involved.

Pedal came to me offering a deal, it has nothing whatsoever to do with you or any perceived dislike of you.

USA is allowed to trade with whomever she wishes, and I have most certainly already sent exponentially greater resources to USSR, UK, and France than I ever have to Italy and Germany.

My plans for European liberation remain unchanged and are on the same timetable as I previously expressed to you.
I am sorry that you feel this is some sort of personal attack, it is not, and I am still very much on your side.
Last edited by sabbath on Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gogopher
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54425Post gogopher
Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:28 pm

whatever...rationalize however u will...the forums dont have to be active...u still were there...and that is still tacit agreement...and as to history...well live and learn...we used it to misdirect pedal and lobo and hugy that we were planning an attack on scandanavia and sure enough beaches got reinforced...so yes if its there people read it...

lol im pretty sure hugy was supprised to find the UK cv's still in the pacific (or maybe not...:P)

sabbath
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54426Post sabbath
Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:41 pm

I never asked to be put in the Allied forum, and furthermore I am not even in Allies(yet).

Nations are free to make trade deals for resources, that is explicitly stated in the rules.

I feel you two are highly overreacting to simple commonplace trade deals that happen every game. I have sent probably over 20 times the amount of resources to USSR/UK/France as I have to any Axis nations.
USA has not betrayed Allies on any level and this is all very reactionary.

A cooling off period would be beneficial. USA will now be silent until the game sponsor and others weigh in.
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cougy
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54427Post cougy
Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:08 pm

I am extremely sorry that my action, of withdrawing, has possibly ruined the game that has developed for months. I know it is an incredible investment of time and effort with the ultimate aim of enjoyment. This morning I enjoyed the game, thought it was going great, had fun with the diverse front actions and the such...but with this one revelation wiped that feeling out complete. I guess it is the sense of betrayal. I have been hanging on against the entire Axis side since mid '39 begging for assistance receiving the cold shoulder and statements about "saving up money & supplies for an invasion." Only to find out that they are given to the Axis.

It almost feels like the US was attempting to play both sides against the middle in a play to extend the game due to a selfish feeling that they would not get into the war, or be able to "nuke" the Axis. I would have been fine with the US trading with Germany and/or Japan if Japan was out of the war, but once it became all against England trading should have ended. What was the driving force of the US in the current game to trade with the Axis?

Excusing aside, I regret having to do it but I will not continue. Hugo, Duck, Rdude, and Nixon I am sorry for dropping on you guys, IMHO you all played an honest good game and do not deserve a wasted effort.

sabbath
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54428Post sabbath
Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:12 pm

I can understand the perceived 'betrayal' which I can assure you is not the case.
This is what comes of reading information that you are not supposed to be reading.
(If an item was left out in a store and the clerk was around, and you took it, is it not still stealing)?

I have sent MANY resources to you, nearly every session, and MUCH more than I have ever sent to any Axis nations.
That only stopped in the last, what 30 days of real game time? That is hardly a cold shoulder.
I really think you are overreacting and should give some time for this decision.

You are in essence trying to set a precedent to open up the save and scrutinize every single trade deal that is made by any country, and that is surely not the intention or desire of anyone in this game.

Players must be allowed to choose their own decisions within the framework of the rules without metagame repercussions and accusations of betrayal over some minor resource trades.


No rules have been broken, and the game will continue I am sure.
Trade Rules:
Quote:
1. The USA must auto-trade until Germany's Belligerence breaks 60, July 1940, or they enter the war. After any of these they are free to do as they please.

2. The USSR must auto-trade until Germany's Belligerence breaks 80, July 1940, They are not offered the MR Pact or they enter the war. After any of these they are free to do as they please.

3. Auto trade does not prohibit manually negotiated trade agreements.

4. Nations have a right to a positive flow of resources, and may cancel trade deals to assure it, and block exports to maintain it.

5. No Free trading. (IE: X for nothing.)
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hugolin
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54431Post hugolin
Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:45 pm

Wow lots to read! Glad to hear of an Axis-USA alliance, I was never sure of Sabbath's intention.
:)

Well it's 12:45am now, so I'm not getting into this, but one thing is sure, if an individual is quitting, it's unfortunate, but I understand it sometimes feels necessary. However I find in these games there's no shortage of reason to quit, be it a rollback, a bad battle, insults, bad relationships, cheating or perception of cheating, game mechanism bug, rule twisting, etc.

In sum, for a flawless game, one is better to play solo. It's really messy to play as a group.
"Defending like Chiang, attacking like Il Douche, Conquering like... Emperor Cheeto, Emperor of the Sino-Japanese Empire of the peaceful sun of the Eastern horizon"

gogopher
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54441Post gogopher
Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:18 pm

i am in agreement with cougy...sabbath ur actions in this game ruined the flavor and the feel of it...it is readily apparent u where going to ally with the chinese to form a 4th faction...ur bs about joining the allies is just that...bs....u were in our forums and thus u tacitly agreed to join the allies...had u not wanted to u should have asked to be removed from those forums...so though i hate to concede defeat in any game it is obvious to both cougy and i that we cannot hold out against the axis and an axis leaning usa...and let me be very clear here....we are not withdrawing from the game we are conceding defeat...

if u wish to remove us from our countries u may do so of course...but we the allies (made up of cougy and myself) surrender en-mass and unconditionally to the axis powers...we will both be there sunday to formally surrender our forces...

pedal2000
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54444Post pedal2000
Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:46 pm

Ok this doesn't touch on everything but I'll try and get the important stuff. Sorry I'm writing this on my dinner break for the day!

A. On the USA-Germany things, yes I've made trades with the Americans. I've also had them going with the UK (Prior to the war) and the USSR. This is, and has been, an ahistorical game. The rule is that the USA cannot ally Germany. He is free to trade as he pleases, and is technically, officially, a neutral faction. To that end, given the strength of the Allies currently - where the UK is quite capably holding off the entire Axis alone at the moment - I have been talking to Sabbath regularly about trade deals. Sabbath hasn't at any point ever given anything up regarding your strategies, or any 'insight' into the Allied plans or forums. The most I could tell you about American plans is that he's been intent on 'wanting something left of Japan to beat down'.
Pedal, I wanted to thank you for deleting the history in our previous saves. I would have never thought about looking there until you made a point of deleting it so it could not be read.
AFAIK The history's been cleared pretty much every time. I told Sabbath to do it last game when he took over host and I did it while I was hosting. I got this from Jones who hosted before and cleared it every time there was a rehost. It's the Host's responsibility to clear it whenever it is up as far as I am concerned - mainly because it can only harm them not to do so.
things like the czechs on a 1% chance joining the axis are unrepeatable and completely break any sembelence of balance...those type of things cannot be allowed....japan dow'ing the allies in 39 with no reaction from a (in the future-stably played usa) cannot be allowed...
Why not? Neither of those broke the game. The Axis isn't in any amazing shape, partially admittedly because of my somewhat weak first time through as Germany and partially because the Allies are, imo, in a very strong position. You're currently successfully holding off the combined Axis powers and I don't see any massive shifts occurring in the past few sessions.
and try and remember u are in the allies forums..that very fact is tacit agreement to join the allies....secretly consipiring against the allies while being in those forums is utter an complete bullshit
I also have to disagree with this sentiment. Japan, for example, regularly starts in the forums of the Axis but has gone ahistorical. The important fact, and only fact that matters imo, is that the players do not leak any information they gained from the forums to the enemy players. I've never had anyone do that, nor have I ever asked. That's just good sportsmanship. If we're going with an ahistorical game, then we have to accept that players are going to change their mind at times. If Germany decides to go with the Unholy Alliance pact, should he boot Italy and Japan from the Axis forums on day one? That'd be a very clear indication of what is being planned. As would leaving the Forums of the Allies.

It was made pretty clear at the start of the game that the USA isn't implicitly part of the Allies IIRC. Nothing Sabbath has done (as far as I know)

sabbath
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54450Post sabbath
Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:00 pm

Thanks for that. I hope we can continue in whatever capacity, whether it be with Rdude or if Cougy/Gopher would like to return.
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cougy
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54454Post cougy
Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:00 pm

I have had enough of the "game-iness" in this game...with Sabbath's actions being the icing on the cake; I am done. I can now understand why the Friday game fell apart due to one player.

Once again to Duck, Hugo, Nixon, and Rdude I am sorry for abandoning the game. To The Mechanic, Supreme Commodore Benedict Arnold, and El Douche I can only say you all have taking the game to a new level, congrats.

gogopher
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54456Post gogopher
Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:46 pm

lol well im not sure i would have put it that way cougy but u are in essence correct...

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