Thank you Pedal

HoI2: Arsenal of Democracy. Home of the former (now legendary!) Tuesday Pacific game.

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sabbath
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54458Post sabbath
Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:09 pm

It is curious to me and seemingly mean spirited for you two to try to throw me under the bus for this when I did nothing more than reply to a request FROM Pedal.

It is not as if I had some secret plans all along to destroy Allies or went to Pedal with a suggestion.
Only in the last game month or two did Pedal come to me and ask for resource trades.

I did nothing underhanded and nothing that was not explicitly laid out in the rules.

This game is all supposed to be in good fun and it is not like I went out with you guys sister or something, getting personally offended over normal game events is a bit too much.

I simply made some resources trades, nothing more.
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Brother Lobo
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54462Post Brother Lobo
Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:57 am

I am appalled by this situation.

I asked before this game even began if Gopher and Cougy were serious about staying for a whole game, since both had a history of quitting over relatively minor issues. They swore they were in it to the end this time.
yeah cougy and i are willing to play it out...i cannot speak for him but i would be fine with france/china/argentina as a country...there are prolly enough of u all to claim all the majors so those would suit me fine...
AND lets play this one to conclusion...no quitting (im guilty here i know) and no ending the game early due to overwhelming victory appearences...if we all agree to this we might actually see a commintern-allied war or if germany wins an axis-everyone else war...would be pretty cool...if ur country is killed stay on as a puppet or flee in exile to a new country...but keep playing
I despise liars.

Call it surrender if you want, but I call it quitting and it goes opposite to what you two said before we began.

To abandon the game over such a minor issue, and once again potentially ruin weeks of progress for all the other players involved is downright childish. I should have seen this coming when you two threatened to quit when the AI Spain left the allies early on.

But it goes even deeper than that. The group spent weeks discussing rules prior to beginning this game. Rules where both of you had ample time to raise objections, and refuse to play if you felt the rules were unfair and yet you chose to play anyway.

The United States has freedom to trade with whoever it wishes. That was agreed upon prior to the game beginning. The fact that a nation may trade with its future enemies, or the enemies of its future allies is not a betrayal and is not unprecedented. It is common practice in these games. So called “backroom deals” are all part of the diplomacy aspect that only exists in multiplayer games. Single player does not offer any such dynamic, which is one of the reasons I enjoy playing against other human beings.

True, these deals can sometimes cause unusual circumstances to arise, but that’s all part of the fun in my view.

A few examples- In game 12 I (as Germany) cut a deal with the allies to take down the Comintern. I kept my end of the bargain only to be stabbed in the back weeks later. While I was fighting a two front war, Altaris who was the neutral USA, generously continued to fund the Axis with resources while this was going on. There were no shouts of betrayal against him, and his partners did not run away in a fit of rage.

In that very same game, Nixon, who was Japan was in the Axis early in the game, but then abruptly left the Axis and joined the commintern to gain access to resources. I did not like this, but I did not condemn him for it or threaten to quit the game. In his shoes I might have done the same thing.

And, in that very same game I eventually cut a deal with the USSR to make peace, and Pedal traded with me, funding my resource needs while I crushed the allies. Again, no screams of betrayal or quitting.
Hugo, Duck, Rdude, and Nixon I am sorry for dropping on you guys, IMHO you all played an honest good game and do not deserve a wasted effort.
These are just a few of the secret plans, trades, and backroom deals that have gone on in past games. If you knew even half of what was proposed by some of the “honorable” players in your list, you wouldn’t be saying such nice things about them. I mean this to be a compliment, because I admire creativity and thinking outside the box.

If trading with the Axis is such a huge issue in this game, then you should be equally outraged at Duck who has been liberally trading with the Axis since the beginning of the game and continues to do so right now. Yet for some reason, that seems to be overlooked.

Also, acting as if this is some great secret which came out of nowhere is completely silly. Only a few weeks ago Sabbath publicly announced in the game that he was going to be trading with the Axis. If you were not paying attention to this announcement then that is your own fault, and it certainly isn’t grounds for quitting.

Furthermore, Sabbath is not going to be joining forces with the Axis. No such agreement has been made. If I remember the rules correctly, the USA is actually prohibited from joining any alliance other than the allies.

Also, despite what you may have read in the history, the amount of money received is not nearly enough to provide any game changing advantage for little Italy. It will provide a temporary improvement in some areas, but will quickly be consumed. I have received two trade deals with the USA, and I did not request them either. They were offered to me, and I was quite surprised.

I also despise having my time wasted. I truly enjoy playing multiplayer games against multiple human players, but I am becoming increasingly frustrated with the way the WPO group is behaving. When I first joined this forum I was very happy because I finally found a group of players in my time zone who played at times when I could join in. In my first game here, I was also equally elated when the game continued on until there was a decisive winner. In that first game, one alliance was completely defeated and of the two remaining, only one was viable. A great finish.

Since then, we have played 4 more. Of those 4, the last 3 have had no decisive ending. It has been a constant argument with many players quitting for stupid reasons or are unwilling to accept any kind of loss or disadvantage, or take responsibility for their own actions or mistakes. Worse yet are the instances of players trying to coerce each other, basically demanding “Do this or else I will quit.”

Now I see it is happening again in a fourth game.

I’m tired of this. I just want to see a game completed and have some fun.

I hope we can actually finish a game for once, even if that means having someone replace Cougy and Gopher if they cannot come to terms with the situation.
"Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." - Thomas Paine, "The American Crisis"

hugolin
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54468Post hugolin
Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:36 am

My turn to write about the current situation.

It is unfortunate you guys should to leave. I can understand your feeling, I think everyone at some point feels there's something unfair happening. I could do my list, I think everyone can. But the process should have been for you guys to lodge a complaint to the group, in these forums, simply voicing your opinion that you think it's wrong; in other words to open a debate. It would perhaps belong to the discussion about the rules of next game. But again, there's nothing in the current game rules preventing the US to play as it pleases. The idea was to create a 4th faction, we did that. Again, the due process is to talk about it. You did talk about it, but right after decided to quit, without waiting for the group's feedback.

About the hardship of the Allies and the perceived ganging-on, it's very hard if not frustrating to play the Allies. You fight many losing battles, you retreat, your role is really to delay the inevitable, you normally cannot beat the Axis by yourselves, until Russia and the USA come to save the Allies. That's the very nature of this game. Playing Allies needs a special fortitude, the one needed by a losing Germany.

I this current game, IMO you did spectacularly well at delaying us. No matter what happens next, I hope you had fun until now, because you saw lots of action and managed to "save the furniture" (do we say that in English?).

About the game history, afaik anyone taking a save during the session have access to the chat history, no?

Finally, I hope you will reconsider your decision and stay with us. I think most people are still excited about the game, and it's far from over. IMO the Axis are behind schedule, but we don't know yet what Duck or Sab will do.
"Defending like Chiang, attacking like Il Douche, Conquering like... Emperor Cheeto, Emperor of the Sino-Japanese Empire of the peaceful sun of the Eastern horizon"

gogopher
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54474Post gogopher
Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:20 pm

hugy u talked me into it...lol...in all seriousness i spoke at great length with cougy and duck...and while cougy feels (rightly so) betrayed and extremely angry with sabbath for (once again) going rogue and random he is most likely going to stay on as the uk...he will make his final decision tonight...in any event i will stay on in control of the allies...either as france or the uk...i do not require assistance if i play the uk...so france can go AI controlled at that point...

as i stated in a different post i as either the co-head of the allies or the head of the allies want sabbath removed from the allied forums until he decides if he is actually going to join and be part of the free world...this on-again off-again relationship with the allies will end now and if he wishes to join our alliance he can ask

pedal2000
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54475Post pedal2000
Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:22 pm

gogopher wrote:as i stated in a different post i as either the co-head of the allies or the head of the allies want sabbath removed from the allied forums until he decides if he is actually going to join and be part of the free world...this on-again off-again relationship with the allies will end now and if he wishes to join our alliance he can ask
Glad to hear it! I believe Cougy has the ability to remove or not-remove people from the Allied forums but I will check with Jones to make sure. If he needs any help just PM me and I'll show him how!

gogopher
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54476Post gogopher
Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:37 pm

awesome...if he feels he cannot continue then i will still get him to do so...see u all sunday (though duck indicated to me that the day is bad for him so we may not be able to play...he is trying to work his schedule out)

hugolin
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54480Post hugolin
Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:44 pm

Glad to hear you guys are thinking about continuing to stay. I am hoping you are not staying to sabotage the game, but are planning to continue to play with the same tenacious determination you did until now.

Please don't go personal with Sab. Even with all the past BS we all went though, let's try to keep it about the game. If it were me the US giving the money to the Axis for example.

So in sum the Allies would like the USA to clarify its situation. They unreservedly expressed their disapproval (!) about the USA helping this Axis at this stage. Fair trade between the USA and the world, including the Axis, shouldn't be prevented, but gift in kind, yes. In short, the pro-fascism lobby in the USA is illegal.
"Defending like Chiang, attacking like Il Douche, Conquering like... Emperor Cheeto, Emperor of the Sino-Japanese Empire of the peaceful sun of the Eastern horizon"

gogopher
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54486Post gogopher
Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:24 pm

i concede the points...i am reminded that this is indeed a sandbox game (with a few rules thrown in)...the usa is indeed allowed to trade with whomever it wishes...gifts were explicitly banned...however both cougy and myself recieved some minor ones from the usa (though not in a long time)...so as long as it stops now and reverts to only what is in the rules im fine with were we are at...

my only remaining beef is with the usa in the allied forums...those should be reserved for allies not fence sitters...my main issue has always been if u are in ur respective forum i assumed it was a firm commitment...i was wrong and wont make anymore issue over it...nor will i make that mistake anymore

and i will restate my position: cougy may or may not be returning as the UK...he is thinking it over and will let me know tomorrow...he feels betrayed and is terribly upset at the actions of the usa...however...i will be playing on no matter what...i will either continue as france or i will take over as the UK for cougy...he will then most likely load free france and then drop the game allowing my control of france to continue...i have zero issues controlling the entirity of the allies...hectic though it may be

and i never, ever play to sabotage a game...if i play i play to win...and i play to have fun...i dont play to destroy..so have no worries on that front (though cougy is a much better UK player than i am...so there may be some skill drop off)

however i fully expect cougy back and ready to play on sunday (duck permitting...or tues if not)...raring his angry head and going forward...i will be shocked if he isnt

sabbath
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54491Post sabbath
Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:17 pm

Please do remove me from the Allied forums if that helps. There is nothing much in there, not much discussion has been going on.

As pedal said I did not give away any information nor was this some long premeditated revenge plan. Pedal came to me and asked for resource help a couple few sessions ago and that is all that came of it.

Funny to think that I would plan to plot with Axis this the whole time, no good can come of it and we cannot Ally even if I wanted to. About the only secret move I tried to make was offering an alliance with Japan/Hugo before the game began.

Gopher apologized for earlier games and Cougy has been a great player, and I have really been appreciative of that up until now. After my original doubts about teaming with both of you were lessened, I thought we were getting along quite well and I was enjoying it.
I don't want to screw you guys so I hope these few trade deals will not be taken out of the larger context.

I still plan and have planned from the start of the game to defeat the enemies of Democracy.
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rdudejr
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54493Post rdudejr
Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:32 pm

hugolin wrote:you saw lots of action and managed to "save the furniture"
My god Hugo, this is the most offensive thing I have heard in my life. Downright racist, dear god man!!!! I have no words on how offensive this phrase is in English


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:mrgreen:

hugolin
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54496Post hugolin
Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:10 am

Cultural differences...
"Defending like Chiang, attacking like Il Douche, Conquering like... Emperor Cheeto, Emperor of the Sino-Japanese Empire of the peaceful sun of the Eastern horizon"

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Jones
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 54511Post Jones
Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:57 pm

gogopher wrote:...my only remaining beef is with the usa in the allied forums...
Removed. Glad you guys have worked this out.
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" - William Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar"

cougy
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Re: Thank you Pedal

Post: # 58551Post cougy
Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:36 pm

Lobo wrote:
Pedal noticed that Cougy did not erase the chat log when he reloaded the saves. There was talk by the allies of doing a joint Allied/Soviet invasion of Scandinavia and Finland. Now, Cougy knows very well that the history is normally erased whether he knows how to actually do it or not. What I wonder is if these “war plans” were not left purposely for us to find in the hopes that we will panic and move units northward.
Glad to see that planned ruse Operation Quicksilver worked, guess I wasn't the only one that looked at the chat log...

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