CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

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El Duck
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CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56641Post El Duck
Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:31 pm

In talking with Hugo, it has come to my attention that there is a bug/exploit that seems to be coming into play in our game. What has happened is that the US has bombed the infrastructure of both the capitals of Japan and China, resulting in the ESC of all units of those countries to be seriously degraded.

The bug works in this fashion. The capital of a nation is either surrounded or has its infrastructure bombed to zero or very near zero. The result is that all units belonging to that nation go out of supply even if there is a supply depot located in the same province. As long as the capital is repeatedly bombed and the infrastructure not allowed to be repaired, the units remain out of supply and over time will completely be destroyed.

In order to correct this bug, I suggest that we implement the following rule regarding strategic bombing:

1. The infrastructure of any province except the capital of a nation may be bombed to zero and kept there by repeated bombings.

2. The infrastructure of capitals of both major and minor countries may only be reduced by bombing to 50% of their starting value. That level may be retained indefinately by repeated bombing.

sabbath
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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56643Post sabbath
Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:14 pm

I was under the impression it was working as designed, but if that's what people want to do that is as good of a solution I can think of, I was considering implementing something similar in Friday game if people were having too big of a problem with it. I think with proper air cover it is a defendable strategy though.
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cougy
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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56649Post cougy
Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:43 pm

However rockets, V1 & V2, are totally unstoppable even with proper aircover. I have tested it with the 1944 scenario.

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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56651Post hugolin
Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:19 am

Yes thanks Duck to have brought it up. It may be WAD, but IMO it's a poor feature, and unrealistic at that. It's interesting to explore consequences of your capital being bombed, dissent could be one of such consequences, but I think to stall the supply of all your armies is unrealistic and really bizarre.
To destroy infrastructure could have some effect on your overall TC, for example, this would make more sense, but as it is it's ridiculous, and I was really happy Duck brought this up because I couldn't figure out why Chinese units that were not moving were losing supplies, while China itself had plenty of supplies - well Sab now I know why you bombed Nanking, which has no IC to speak of. I had no idea of this 'feature'.

V1 and V2 would make this even more ridiculous, since V2 simply cannot be stopped, so in time all capital of the world could be at zero infrastructure. Very bizarre of BL-Logic to have done this.

I like Duck's proposal, and thanks to have brought it up again, but would it be possible (talking to Sab here, he seems to know best about edits) through a game edit, to remove altogether the connection between supply and the capital's infrastructure? Because I think it could be great to be able to destroy the capital ICs and infrastructure, even down to zero IMO, but it shouldn't affect the overall supply level of your army.
"Defending like Chiang, attacking like Il Douche, Conquering like... Emperor Cheeto, Emperor of the Sino-Japanese Empire of the peaceful sun of the Eastern horizon"

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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56652Post hugolin
Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:22 am

As it stands, the only way to limit the 'bombed level' to 50% would be through a save game edit just following the bombing itself. Could be tedious...
"Defending like Chiang, attacking like Il Douche, Conquering like... Emperor Cheeto, Emperor of the Sino-Japanese Empire of the peaceful sun of the Eastern horizon"

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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56655Post sabbath
Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:35 am

Well are we going to remove rockets from the game too? I'm sure at least some other players are already researching them. I hate to remove options and features.

I think the best solution is to move some air cover to one's capital. :)
(And to be aware of the dangers of not doing so/not having enough air cover pre-game, and adjust air cover builds accordingly, which you didn't know at the time).

Other than that, log bombing with a given set of planes generally results in a consistent # of infrastructure being removed. Players could be held on the honor system not to do any more log bombing runs of a given capital until the infrastructure of that capital had risen to a certain level.

I will look into some game files/modding to see if there is a factor that can be edited also...
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El Duck
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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56657Post El Duck
Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:48 am

sabbath wrote:Well are we going to remove rockets from the game too? I'm sure at least some other players are already researching them. I hate to remove options and features.
There is no suggestion to remove any option or feature from the game. What we want to do is to limit a known exploit.

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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56660Post cougy
Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:33 am

sabbath wrote:Well are we going to remove rockets from the game too? I'm sure at least some other players are already researching them. I hate to remove options and features.

I think the best solution is to move some air cover to one's capital. :)
What would be the point of moving planes to the capital to stop the rockets? Since as I have said before both v1 &v2 rockets are completely unstoppable, i.e. cannot be intercepted nor shoot down. I guess the pilots would wave at the rockets and have a front row seat to them hitting the target with totally 'realistic' WW2 accuracy (sarcasm).

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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56662Post sabbath
Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:56 pm

Cougy, no no, I meant the solution to strat bombers is to move air cover to the capital.

Point about rockets was that if we remove a use for strat bombers, then that effect can still happen by using rockets instead, so I was wondering if the people that are against strat bombing capitals want rockets removed or neutered as well.
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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56672Post cougy
Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:44 pm

Oh my bad sabbath. Yes I agree that neither Strats nor rockets should be prevented or not used. But the destruction of an entire nations army due to a poor game design is bad too. I think of the 2 options (for both strats & rockets), the gentleman's agreement of not reducing a capital beyond 50% Infra is cool with me. With the ability to bomb anyother hex into the ground. I know with England, London does have 19 hard(21 tech boosted) ICs but there are tons of juicy bombable targets just outside of London that would greatly hurt my economy if damaged. The same for Germany with the industrial Ruhr.

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Brother Lobo
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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56679Post Brother Lobo
Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:01 pm

Well, naturally the destruction of infrastructure has a severe effect on ESE. This is one of the main reasons logistical strikes exist. It makes sense that if you destroy the head of a supply chain the whole chain will be disrupted. So, if the bulk of what you use flows from the capital out to various places, if the capital is a pile of rubble, this will cause a great reduction in ESE.

Without going into too much detail here, the trouble China is having is not solely related to the bombing of its capital, the AI is partially to blame for this.

As far as this leading to all armies being destroyed, I think that is a bit of a stretch. Considering that infra can be repaired quickly with a substantial investment, and that each unit carries its own supplies and fuel, combined with the ability to defend against air attacks makes it pretty difficult to keep a capital city near zero infrastructure for any length of time from Strat bombing. The same goes for rockets which do not constantly exist. When you fire them, they are gone and unless you have hundreds of them (which no one ever does) you have to wait for them to be produced, deployed, and at full organization. During this time infrastructure would repair and regenerate (unless you consciously chose not to).

But, suppose we accept this idea that somehow all armies would be destroyed (or at least severely hampered). Is it so hard to believe that if a nation is at a point where its capital city has been totally destroyed to the point where it is at zero infrastructure that perhaps the entire nation might be at risk anyway? Is it wrong to assume that in that scenario most of the other important provinces might be in danger too? Is it wrong to assume that shortages would certainly occur under such a sustained and widespread campaign?

History tends to support this. The bombing campaigns waged against Germany and Japan during the war destroyed entire cities and crippled infrastructure across both nations. Near the end of the war, when this campaign was at its height, both nations had severe shortages of vital goods ranging from fuel to foodstuffs. Two nuclear blasts reduced two Japanese cities to “zero infrastructure” and this led them to finally surrender. Is it so hard to believe that if these nations had somehow chosen to fight on longer that these shortages would have increased to the point where it began severely effecting troops in the field?

My point is while this “ability” is a crude way of illustrating such a thing, it isn’t totally unrealistic. I don’t like the idea of restricting strikes on an enemy capital. While this may be a way of dealing with the issue, I fear we are only exchanging one issue for others. The idea of allowing capital cities to become untouchable islands after a certain point will lead to all kinds of issues. Parking units there to regain org faster, placing certain land builds in the capital knowing full well that they may not ever be fully destroyed due to limits on strike abilities. It also sets the stage for arguments since not every unit has a choice of missions and not every strike results in the same amount of damage. While Strat bombers can do Industrial Bombardment and hit ICs only (IIRC) Rockets on the other hand, ONLY have the “Strategic Bombardment” mission, so they cannot help but damage infrastructure too. When that happens, it will be difficult to stay within any arbitrary damage limit. What if one rocket too many is fired and infra drops below whatever the number is? Or one strike causes slightly more damage than the previous? The same goes for bombers since depending on the mission, the amount of damage varies.

I would also ask where this concept ends? If we limit capital strikes because they affect overall ESE, then are we going to limit regular logistical strikes on frontline provinces? What about blockading islands too? Are we going to limit convoy raiding? Bombing ICs too maybe? Targeting Resources? Are we going to ban encirclements next? Seriously? Where does it end? All of these actions are working towards the same ends really, to cripple enemy troops one way or another. If they starve on an island, if the homeland runs out of a vital resource, if they lack the ICs to reinforce etc… it is all towards the same ends.

Having stated my feeling that restricting Capital strikes is unnecessary, I will suggest that if such an idea is ever implemented in a game; a few things should be considered-

First, the 50% cap should be replaced with “A national capital may only be reduced to 50 infrastructure. That level may be retained indefinitely by repeated bombing.” If a nation builds up its capital to 200 infra, 50% still leaves it at 100 infra, which will have little effect on ESE. The idea of the proposed restriction should not be to completely prevent any effect, but to keep it at a reasonable level.

Second, these proposed rules would have to include a total ban on nuclear attacks on a national capital since the damage cannot be limited to any particular amount. (The exception would be below)

Third, there also must be an exemption in the case of the capital city being on the front lines. For instance, if I am nearing an enemy capital and there is a big stack sitting in the city, it should be legitimate to logistical strike the city by any means necessary to aid an attack on that province. How ridiculous would it be to be able to border an enemy capital and strike every province around it while the enemy can horde divisions in a capital that is still largely intact?
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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56681Post cougy
Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:31 am

Brother Lobo wrote: First, the 50% cap should be replaced with “A national capital may only be reduced to 50 infrastructure. That level may be retained indefinitely by repeated bombing.” If a nation builds up its capital to 200 infra, 50% still leaves it at 100 infra, which will have little effect on ESE. The idea of the proposed restriction should not be to completely prevent any effect, but to keep it at a reasonable level.
I agree with you and miss-wrote what I meant...50% of the infra of a capital is too hard to judge and/or meet the points that Lobo made above. What I meant to say but totally wrote wrong was...that a capital zone should not be reduced beyond a certain point like .50infra, .40, or even .25infra. I believe the "no-supply out" issue happens at .20(from what I discovered from paradox forums).

There is no prefect solution for this situation because it is not a compromise or even house rules creation we are dealing with it is a beast of a different nature. This is a failure of game mechanic, that I also have seen with be addressed in 1.08, that has huge repercussions that were neither intend by design nor meet with historic precedence.

Yes the Allies did heavily bomb the Axis powers, however these strikes are still debated about their effectiveness. For every theory on how the bombing campaigns "won" the War you can find one against. When taken in the larger picture, strategic bombing/rocket is just one element on the road to victory. Especially when combined with embargo, convoy raids, military & civilian casualties, material loses, leadership, atomic weapons, and the weather. However, in AOD 1.07 "ultimate" victory can be achieved via an unrealistic but just reducing(and keeping it there) the infrastructure of nation's capital.

Ask yourself this...from the US Civil War to our current conflict in Afghanistan do all the supplies that the United States Armed Forces use run through Washington D.C.?

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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56684Post hugolin
Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:11 am

Lobo writes:
Where does it end?
It ends here. We're talking here about 1 specific thing, and not talking about anything else. We're talking about zeroing the Capital's infrastructure, period. If there's other issues with the current game, we can address them, but this is this one bug/feature we talk about here.

The problem too is that only one successful logistic raid can zero the infra (Tokyo went from 200 to almost zero in the first STR raid). The IC was left pretty much intact (lost 2 base ICs or so), the port was intact, etc. It really is exaggerated to ruin an army because 1 province has 0 infrastructure, while the rest of a country is doing perfectly fine.

Would one solution be to forbid Logistical Strikes on the capital? AFAIK, STR raid destroy a bit of everything, while Logistical raid focus on INFRA. More realistic. And also less likely to bring one's infra down too fast.

I also like Lobo's ceiling of 50 infrastructure (vs 50%). Or maybe 40 or 30? (COugy says 20 is the ceiling.

Also, again AFAIK, the V1s can be stopped, but not the V2s.
I believe the "no-supply out" issue happens at .20(from what I discovered from paradox forums).
Do you have the link perchance?
--

And also in my turn now I will ask for a game edit to give back Nanking some infrastructure (back up to 50 or so), and a sort of ceasefire against Chinese units, because they have been hurt, perfectly still units lost a serious amount of supplies, while China has 2500+ supplies in stock. It'd be nice if they could resupply a bit, and it'd be a shame to lose more provinces because they are OOS. It already affected the game last session (in Taiwan and Sinkiang). OOS CHinese units fought with a penalty...
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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56686Post El Duck
Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:52 am

This is a serious bug in the AOD supply system and it appears to be slated for correction in 1.08. I support Hugo's request for an edit to restore the infrastructure of the Chinese capital and a short pause in attacks on those units to allow their supply levels to rebuild.

Rockets, logistical strikes, and nukes are all valid and fair options in AOD. Exploiting the bug that puts all units out of supply if the capital infrastructure falls below a certain level (20%?) is not necessary. Under the current proposal, all provinces in a country except the capital can be taken to zero infrastructure. The capital can be reduced a significant amount whethere that be 50% or to the level of 50 or 30 needs to be worked out. The bottom line is that a country can be seriously hurt through strat bombing without triggering the capital exploit bug.

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Re: CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

Post: # 56688Post cougy
Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:29 am

I am fine with the edit of China Nanking's capital infra back up to .50 or whatever.

In theory I have no problem halting the UK's action against China Nanking's zones, but for how long?

However, a ceasefire with Sinkang? I don't think I can accept that. Sinkang has their own units and are not affected by the supply problem. And Ghandi is really perturbed that they attacked.

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