CAPITAL SUPPLY BUG EXPLOIT

[sabbath]

I'm glad Lobo is supporting that the mechanic is working.
I looked around the paradox forum and I do not even see anywhere that this is listed as a bug, does someone have a post?

Also is any "fix" for this in the 1.08 beta? Unless there is already something put in, I don't really believe paradox patch promises until they come out.


If we vote/if it is decided to limit the capital bombing, I can agree to stop my bombing of Chinese of the China-Nanking capital until it has reached (30 or 50 whatever is decided) infrastructure.

(!However additional benefits of stopping attacks on China-Nanking is an option I am strongly against, Nanking capital is only at 16%. Stopping would be costing Allies serious tempo and allow China-nanking extra time to get their troops in position that they wouldn't have!).
This is a war game after-all, as Lobo is implying, we are all trying to reduce enemy troops in one way or another, decisions have to be lived with and we can't prop countries up indefinitely for the sake of niceness.

[gogopher]

okay lets get a few things straight here:

1) this is a bug...whether or not u can find something in the forums is irrelevant...the idea that u can bomb/rocket/nuke one province and destroy the supply capabilities of a nation as large as the UK/germnay/japan/usa/whoever is stupid...let me say that again in case u all missed it...stupid...grow up this isnt a win at any cost game...and fair play should have a home here if nowhere else

2) the idea that bombing actually accomplished squat during ww2 is a hotly debated issue atm...lets focus on germany...the allies began bombing germany heavily during the day and the british during the night starting in 1942...in 1943 the germans had their most productive year ever in building tanks/cannons/blah blah blah....germany lost the war not due to the usa/uk bombing berlin and a magical lack of supplies that that entailed...but rather due to manpower shortage and complete moronic leadership...yes the allies and commintern (who btw were 'allies' as well) outproduced germany by an order of magnitude....and yes bombing had something to do with it....but not bombing the capital which had little to no military value and simply was a moral target and revenge target more than anything else (almost all germany heavy industry was in the Rhur...)

3) the ONLY nation to which the capital was the complete and total center of distrubution and transportation for supplies and war materials was the ussr...if u look at a map of ww2 almost all russian rail lines run through moscow and then link to other places...not so in germany...the capital of germany of course was an important railhead but its loss did not signal the end of rail movement (germans were transporting jews for execution via the rail lines right up until and through 1945)

4) my personal favorite: rockets and nukes...wow anyone who thinks that the use of v1/v2 rockets as a viable strategy in this game is special...v1 rockets were a dumbfire weapon...u loaded them with gas...fire them in the direction of london..and hope they ran out of gas and then hit something useful as they fell out of the sky...by 1943 they were almost completely useless as they did not manuever and the english literally blew them out of the sky...they accomplished ZERO/NADA/SQUAT industrial damage and were pure terror weapons...and their affect was simply non-existent in ww2...allowing the germans the use of them as a strategic resource is stupid and so ahistorical we might as well allow lasers and satellite guided missles...

oh we do in the form of the more worthless v2 rockets...let talk about them shall we...produced in such limited numbers that they did again SQUAT/NADA/NOTHING of strategic value...yes they had a rudimentary guidance system..and yes they could hit what they were aimed at...provided that target was the CITY OF LONDON...no they had no affect on the war outside of killing some few thousand civilians

nukes: really...is this the holy grail of what people play this game for...lets get out of la-la land and look at reality...their use ended ww2....it took two but after the japanese realized the usa had more than one the sheer horror of what they could do caused japan (who was prepared by ALL HISTORICAL ANALYSTS to fight to the last soldier) to surrender UNCONDITIONALLY WITH NO FOREIGN TROOPS ON THEIR ISLANDS...in reality who cares if u can nuke berlin or tokyo...once the usa has a workable nuke and uses it the game should end as an allied victory...period...end of story...whatever fantasy u all are operating under thinking that u can take a few nuke hits and drag this game into 1963 needs to end and end now...

in conclusion: yes lets put this crap to a vote...im sooooo sorry the germans dont have strat bombers and cannot effect the allies ic's...and yes i think allowing the germans to use a limited number (no more than 3 ques...fired only one per territory per day) of v1/v2 rockets should be allowed to make up for the total failure of the game modelling submarine warfare ...i do not support the use of them wholesale...anyone who has played this game knows u can use v1/v2 in the proper number and sequence to perma lock london at 0/0 inf/ind (no i will not go into the magic number save to say it exists)...allied use of bombers is historic, expenisve, and defensible...axis use of rockets is not...allied use of nukes is not

in short i propose the following:

a) u can bomb no territory for more than half of its ic's or down to 50 pts of its inf value ...this will accurately represent the axis moving factories underground and the reality of strat bombing as having limited effects on the german/japanese war effort

b) the germans (only germans) can use up to 3 ques of rockets of any type and can launch one rocket per day at 3 different provineces...the resulting ic cost can be chalked up to ic's that should be spend reducing dissidence which is all the rockets should do...

c) once the usa is able to research/deploy/and use 2 nuclear weapons against any country the game ends in an allied victory...as is should and as was completely historic (in all reality it would have only taken one against germany since berlin surely would have been the target and once hilter was gone so were the nazis..)

now i fully realize that germany and the usa stand to "lose" the most from these rules (germany because im sure they are all ready are building far in excess of 3 ques or v1's...and the usa because sabbath has all ready spent a considerable amount of effort on nukes)...but should we not adopt these rule changes then lets drop all pretense and arguements in the future of Historic this and thats...since we will have moved forever more into the realm of utter fantasy...but let us also recall..should u all vote to not limit things..well tokyo and rome are both indefensible and whatever u all may or may not do to london the allies will simply demlolish japan and italy without using any ground troops...since sabbath can all ready reach tokyo with air power japan has 2 more months till every army is out of supplies and will most likley surrender in 3-4 months...italy will not be far behind...and as the allies all we have to do is hold out until then....yeah so historic


***edit***

i am okay with not adopting #3 if we want to play a what-if-fantasy game...in which case i think as lobo does that nukes cannot be used against capitals...im also okay with bominb a capital once it is surrounded since once that happens that country is dead anyways so who cares...so in short i am fine with voting #1&2 as a package and then #3 seperately...what i am not fine with is the use of strat weapons to reduce a countries supply situation to zero...which is being addressed in 1.08 in the form of supply dumps (which will mimic the capital for the purposes of supplies...thus yes this is a known bug and is being addressed)...and in future games when 1.08 comes out all we will have to decide is the validity of rockets and nukes and not their effect on the capital...so what we need to decide here is for this game and this game alone...and i hope we are all adult enough to put 'winning' out of the equation and choose a sensible workable and hopefully somewhat historically flavored solution....

[hugolin]

@ Cougy: Sinkiang: what I meant is that the Chinese units there has been running on low supplies. But you should be able to continue to attack there, you are right, it's defended by Japanese and Sinkiang units for now. Once the the infrastructure is reestablished, I think the Chinese units there and elsewhere will resupply soon enough.

@ Sab: I know what you mean, CF suck. I ask it to let my Chinese dudes resupply. Not sure where you were planning to attack, but FYI my set-up is pretty much done for now, movement-wise. My big issue is that Chinese units garrisoning the coast are low on supply, these units have been sitting there for a while, and will suffer a stiff penalty if attacked while OOS.
- In Vietnam, I am the one attacking for now, but the Chinese units there are not, from lack of supply.
- South of Tibet, there's a stalemate for now.
- Sinkiang: Sinkiang and Japs are there, some Chinese too.
- Korea: mixed defense. Chinese there OOS however.

In fact all Chinese units are running low in supply, something that has been mystifying me until this discussion came up.

@ Gogo: you bring many issues, they are connected, but I think it's better we focus on the outstanding one: the zero infra = zero supplies bug/feature.

V1s and V2s and Nuke should be left as is for now IMO, but discussed for next game. I personally like your proposals, especially in regard to spreading damage. But they are separate issues. Perhaps we open a new thread? This could be worth a discussion. The issue is that if Nukes and V1-V2s are in process, players shouldn't lose their work in this direction.

I personally support completely destroying the IC of a capital or a province, if you put the effort into it. The one simple rule could be that the infra of a capital cannot go at anytime under 20, if the supply issue starts at 20. Perhaps we can only STR-bomb the Capital? Logistical strike destroy infra only, so they should be forbidden on the capital. The issues is only infrastructure. AFAIK you can destroy the IC of a capital, it won't affect the supply.

[gogopher]

I personally support completely destroying the IC of a capital or a province, if you put the effort into it. The one simple rule could be that the infra of a capital cannot go at anytime under 20, if the supply issue starts at 20. Perhaps we can only STR-bomb the Capital? Logistical strike destroy infra only, so they should be forbidden on the capital. The issues is only infrastructure. AFAIK you can destroy the IC of a capital, it won't affect the supply.

na cant do that...since even strat bombing affects the inf and the industry...thus by the time u get to 0 industry u will have taken the province below 20 inf...even in a 200inf province....

@ Gogo: you bring many issues, they are connected, but I think it's better we focus on the outstanding one: the zero infra = zero supplies bug/feature.

my problem with this is twofold:

1) u admit they are connected however the greater benifit is the axis...the allies are in position to bomb both rome and tokyo...the germans will only ever be able to rocket london...and as to nukes in all reality they arent deployable until 1946 so that is almost a moot point since i doubt we will play that long

2) the attitude in these games is to always table things which are distasteful to one faction while grossly benifiting the other...people say that v1/v2/nukes are just 'a game mechanic' and should be allowed...well we severly limited the usa entry into the war...yet belligerncy is a game mechanic...and thus by peoples very own arguement should be allowed to join the war whenever...this game has a horrible taste in my mouth all ready from all the infighting, exploiting, and do-whatever-it-takes-to-win attitude of the various factions...v1/v2/rockets is just one more completely ahistoric "mechanic" that will be used to allow the axis victory even though every single player in the game knows in the case of rockets they are pure 100% fantasy...and in the case of nukes are meaningless since the war would be over once they are used

i have no problem breaking up the issues and resolving them separetly but i strongly disagree with tabling them until the next session...when u will find those people who now benifit and switch factions will object and those who are harmed now and play different factions will support...i draw to ur attention pedal and his rapid change of heart on expo forces in this game from last...

these issues need to be resolved for the benifit of the entire game and not the countries who gain or lose

[El Duck]

Rockets and nukes are part of the game and, to the best of my knowledge, work as designed. They should be allowed without restrictions except that they cannot be used to reduce the infrastructure of capitals to the level where the capital supply exploit comes into effect.