GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

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El Duck
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GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 56794Post El Duck
Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:23 am

Hi, Guys,


Our group is self-destructing. We no longer treat each other with any degree of respect, we are not able to discuss problem issues in a civil manner much less find a compromise that we can mostly agree on, and we now accuse each other of cheating. I look at the boards of other games and see that the players respect and even seem to genuinely like each other. That used to be the case with the Tuesday game, but it no longer is. We used to meet in the GR lobby before the game started and just chat. That does not happen any more, and the post game sessions are just shouting matches.

I will tell you exactly what is going to happen. I don't think anyone will give up on this game because we don't want to be seen as quitters and so we will soldier on not having much fun and will continue to yell and disrespect anyone who won't agree with our position or does something that looks a little suspicious. When the game finally mercifully ends several of us will just be too busy for one reason or another to start a new AOD game. Others will agree to start a new game but only if so and so player is excluded. This has already happened in a European game, and the whole community is worse off.

It is possible that our group has not yet reached the point of no return, but I think that we are very close. What can we do? I would welcome others' thoughts, but I will of course give you mine.

First of all, if someone is concerned about a possible issue, we all need to keep an open mind and try and understand exactly what is going on and see if their concern has any validity. We need to investigate the issue. This might mean loading the country involved with the owner's permission to see it firsthand or it might mean loading up a whole new game and trying to replicate the issue. If someone has a serious concern, we owe it to each other to try and find a solution, and to do that, we must understand clearly what is involved.

Second, we must try and communicate respectfully. I have found it best to wait and try to resolve problems in the forums after some time has passed rather than in the heat of the moment. A good way to do it is to write up your post and then read it over as if you were the one getting it. If you are really very upset over something, you might consider having a friend or game ally read your post in advance.

Another suggestion would be to follow the Nixon rule. You may have noticed that Nixon seldom posts, and when he does, it is just the facts. Jones was the same way, never disrespectful. People tend to listen to you more the less you post. If you can't comment in a respectful manner, it is better not to say anything.

Never accuse someone of cheating or using an exploit to gain advantage. If you think someone is loading you up ask them about it. For example, "how did you know my unit was a Turkish tank, did you load my country up?"

I would like you all to listen to me, and so I guess I had better stop. I really would like to see some thoughts on what we can do to save our group and be able to continue to play AOD together. I sure hope that it is not to late as I want to continue to play AOD with all of you. Despite its many faults, I think that AOD is the best WW2 game, and I believe that the Tuesday WPO game is where the best AOD players come to play.

sabbath
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 56797Post sabbath
Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:45 am

I'm glad you're trying to make peace, I also do not like the tenor and direction of the post-game and in-game discussions.

That being said I definitely do not think this will be the last Tuesday game, I think some people may not want to play another one, but no one would be excluded. I am sure some people will want to play and I would be happy to be a part of that.


That being said...
"Others will agree to start a new game but only if so and so player is excluded. This has already happened in a European game, and the whole community is worse off."
Hm...yes...I wonder who that could be? :mrgreen: Perhaps that could be an olive branch and a first step towards better relations.
I feel it has definitely splintered the community, and while it is anyone's prerogative to do and play with whom they want, and I'm not sore about it, it is really sad to see a potential for a big game not happen due to personal differences. I feel that the reasons the leader excludes (multiple) people are mostly misguided and spiteful. I have no problem with the person in question and tried my best to improve relations, that's all I can do.


Anyway, I really hope we can all continue Tuesday with an increased respect for the game, the other players, and WPO. 8)
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hugolin
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 56814Post hugolin
Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:15 pm

El Duck, it's true it's been a rocky ride, but we made it that far, past mid-42, so it's a progress from the past game! :) We also hammered out a lot of rules and found new bugs and exploit.

I was recruited in the paradox forums way back by Lobo, who posted a need for a Chinese player. That was in July 2010. It could be time for new blood. The Tuesday game will continue, players come and go.

This game was/is weird, with a peaceful Comintern, a stalled Euro-Axis, and long deadlock in Spain. Asia was more eventful, but it's now coming to an end there, China having been broken into and US armour roaming freely. I'm personally looking forward to see it ending, to move on to other things or to the next game! A few bugs and game mechanics messed up this game. But we know more about what we want, rule-wise, individually and collectively.
"Defending like Chiang, attacking like Il Douche, Conquering like... Emperor Cheeto, Emperor of the Sino-Japanese Empire of the peaceful sun of the Eastern horizon"

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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 56816Post hugolin
Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:12 pm

Hello again! I will also say that even though we voted rules, it was majority rule, and so no one was perfectly happy.

Many rules irritated me - the XP, which I think we now agree is OP and flawed, and the Chinese manpower and $ for example. As it stands, Shanghai will fall, and the US will make $16,000. Like if it historical... China becomes the richest country in AoD's current settings. Same thing: as long as China could trade, human control of China meant it could sent Nationalist China money's to its friends. But me and the Axis not being allowed to field a human player for China means the money piles up uselessly. This is frankly maddening.

All along this game, I lived many frustrating situations because of our rules. I supposed we all did. So it's normal we're becoming upset, since like politics, no group rules completely represents our very own ideal ruleset. Compromise has its limitations...
"Defending like Chiang, attacking like Il Douche, Conquering like... Emperor Cheeto, Emperor of the Sino-Japanese Empire of the peaceful sun of the Eastern horizon"

sabbath
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 56822Post sabbath
Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:32 pm

FWIW if someone on the Axis had a second computer I would be fine with them loading it up as China and doing whatever (including sending money abroad).
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gogopher
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 56950Post gogopher
Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:12 am

so i read the post and have some thoughts:

1) no im afraid i have an issue with china being loaded on a second comp...i realize the axis are in a bad way atm...but that is the nature of the game...the axis have all ready benifited from having more countries tweaked than any other faction: hungry, scandanavia, romania have all had their builds set by human players who then bailed...the one country that has been set for the allies was canada...and when that happened pedal and lobo almost went nuts...i wanted to take brazil and again the axis players went beserk (brazil is now an allied nation if u havent noticed)...so no china (sorry hugy)...not unless rdude wishes to play them

2) at the end of last session there were some wild accusations levelled against the allies: accusations that i was going to ignore until duck told me to respond...i will relay the chain of events that surrounded the accusations...we indeed do have spies in all the axis countries...and unlike sabbaths overt attempts at sabatoge we have been content with information...so we indeed knew of germany's development of the v1 rocket...now since we didnt know the exact date of completion nor the date germany laid down rocket production we had to wait for certain events to happen:

we first began to stockpile interceptor and fighter aircraft in england...we have over 40 aircraft there now of all nations and types...second we waited until lobo paused the game...at each pause we checked the channel airfields to see if blue icons filled the airfields...since lobo has a bad habit of pausing the game everytime he dicks with aircraft it was a simple check...and since both cougy and myself's land intellegence tech is up to speed we could see rough numbers of deployed aircrafte....third as soon as we saw 16+ aircraft hit the airfields we attacked...with a very high degree of confidence that they were rockets or rockets and int/fighters...then i had to wait for new wing to org up....as soon as it did i flew recon on the airfields farther back...lobo also has a bad tendancy to over react to rapidly developing situations...and i knew he would respond with airplanes to try and stop us from attacking the next set of rockets...

i judged that his newly arriving planes would be low on org and thus prime targets for airfield attacks...i was right so when i saw planes in paris i attacked with over 24+ interceptors and fighters...all completely upgraded...i had no idea lobo would feed his planes at me one at a time but i watched the air battles in both europe and spain (where i can see exactly how many planes he has on each airfield since my planes are flying over them)...when i realized i had 50+ planes to his 30+ i began to systematically wipe out each airfield in spain with overwhelming numbers...

cougy has had ships watching the coasts of the axis since the beginning of the game....nixon can verify this since he occasionally loses ships to our sweeps....lobo should have known this since we have intercepted every major ship sent out (point in case we just sunk a finish CA in the english channel not two weeks or so before the attack...with a destroyer)

3) i will not be threatened or subjected to wild accusations...nor will i explain myself everytime something goes our way...and blaming the allied success on expo forces and outright cheating is poor form...the axis have benifitted far more from expo forces than the allies...as they do every single game...the poor play of the axis since the opening phases of this game are not the problem of the allies...and the failure to capture both gibraltar and moscow are not the allies fault...holding gibraltar was a relatively simple matter if u understand how para, fleet transports/naval gunfire, and terrain works...and leaving russia at peace this long is just asking to get raped....

4) placing ur entire war strategy on bombing london's inf/ind to zero to desupply the army and thus achieve some sort of victory through a bug is also poor form...in case u didnt realize we had rome down to over half industry and stopped bombing it for that exact reason...we plan on winning the good old fashion way: bug/exploit free...and before u scream expo forces...a considerable amount of allied forces are under their original flags...most of the ones under british happened due to accidents or extremitis (we had to retreat out of spain/france in a hurry)...

5) in short this game is bug/exploit ridden...the largest by far is austria/czech alliances since they completely unbalance the game...i pleaded with pedal at the start to not accept them as allies but lobo and pedal both wanted to charge on...now lobo is threatening to bomb london down to zero regardless of what we as a group has agreed to...well i believe we all agreed to limit that as a group...so if indeed any rockets are able to hit london below the agreed 50 i will simply exit out and wait for an edit to bring it back up...

this will be the last time i explain myself or cougy's actions...the last time i give insight into our plans and strategies and how we decide how to do certain things...i wil respond no more to these accusations...frankly im getting a bit perturbed at them...by 1942/43 the axis should be losing...anyone playing the axis should come into the game with the idea that if the alliances off ww2 do indeed take form the axis will lose...and since russia is firmly in the allied camp i dont see the axis winning...in fact i see germany soon paying for ignoring russia for so long...with tanks in china hugy is going to be removed from the asian co-prosperity sphere soon...and reduced to his home islands...and since the allies can field over 150 fighter type aircraft soon the bombing germany will commence...or japan...or italy...or all three...and then of course sabbath is almost done with nuclear weapons judging by his post (los alamos) so that should put a usable one on the map in two years time i would guess...though i doubt the axis will be viable by that time

due to the anger i see existing in this game...i am completely fine with the axis conceding defeat and and begin discussing a new game...however since 1.08 is not yet done i would think we continue playing this one until it is then starting up a new one...as lobo said once before we have never gone this long and i would like to see it played out as there is a lot of game left...even if it is mostly a defensive one for the axis

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Brother Lobo
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 57055Post Brother Lobo
Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:46 am

I will respond to Cougy and Gopher first then state my feelings on the general state of the game.
“1) no im afraid i have an issue with china being loaded on a second comp...i realize the axis are in a bad way atm...but that is the nature of the game...the axis have all ready benifited from having more countries tweaked than any other faction: hungry, scandanavia, romania have all had their builds set by human players who then bailed...the one country that has been set for the allies was canada...and when that happened pedal and lobo almost went nuts...i wanted to take brazil and again the axis players went beserk (brazil is now an allied nation if u havent noticed)...so no china (sorry hugy)...not unless rdude wishes to play them”
For the record, we have had Sabbath using a second computer for various functions for most of this game. This involves setting much more than just a build queue. The Nationalist Chinese AI has numerous problems, supply issues, reinforcement issues, resource issues, and production issues. Not to mention all the control issues regarding warlords. To have him with total control over both China and the USA is indeed a great advantage that the axis has never had. Unlike China, the axis minors don’t have 3000 manpower, thousands of dollars in cash which can be given away at will, and don’t begin the scenario with the ability to paralyze one of the major nations with an endless war.

Secondly, the allies have had both Canada and Mexico with build queues set now. This is equal to Romania and Scandinavia. As far as I know Hungary has not been touched.

Third, correct me if I am wrong, but Brazil was not in the allies when you wanted to take it. You basically picked out a pretty strong country which was unaligned and wanted to take it and join the allies early. Neither I nor Pedal “went nuts” over this, we simply thought at that particular time that it was peculiar and that other alliances would not be afforded the same opportunity.
“this game is bug/exploit ridden...the largest by far is austria/czech alliances since they completely unbalance the game...i pleaded with pedal at the start to not accept them as allies but lobo and pedal both wanted to charge on”
Fourth, the Czech event is just that, it is an event. It is pretty random IIRC. And while it was fortuitous that we got the event, it is not a bug or an exploit and it is not the result of extra human players. Also, the event was not “free” since accepting it caused the Albania event not to fire for Italy and prevented Germany from gaining control of the resources in that territory (we must trade instead and the AI can cancel trades). Worse yet, those Czech units have difficulty reinforcing after battles. This did not unbalance anything.

Fifth, you two had no trepidations about bringing Communist Republican Spain into your alliance, helping them win the Spanish Civil War, and most of all, exploiting the wartime IC bug. When you went to war, it lifted the peace time modifiers and NEVER REIMPOSED THEM. So I don’t want to hear one more word about the Czechs. The Axis magnanimously let this go.
“no im afraid i have an issue with china being loaded on a second comp…so no china (sorry hugy)…”
For you to object to the Axis using a second computer at this point is ridiculous and very hypocritical. More importantly, you are not in any position to veto such a thing. Yes, we will most likely be doing this, despite the obvious lateness of such a move.
“4) placing ur entire war strategy on bombing london's inf/ind to zero to desupply the army and thus achieve some sort of victory through a bug is also poor form”
For the record, this was not, and is not the “entire” axis strategy. Such a statement is ludicrous. Rockets are only one part of the overall strategy and the intent was never to solely strike London, but various targets which I will not name here.
“in case u didnt realize we had rome down to over half industry and stopped bombing it for that exact reason...we plan on winning the good old fashion way: bug/exploit free”
This is downright laughable. The Allies purposely destroy Rome, Tokyo, and Nanking, then AFTER the damage is already done and you have benefited from the actions taken, you want to impose a new restriction MID GAME to protect yourself from retaliation by your opponents. It is more likely you stopped bombing Rome because intense Axis air power was brought in to oppose you, rather than any grand sense of fair play.

The time to debate and impose any such restrictions was before the game began. Doing this now, in a way that specifically discriminates against Germany YEARS into the game, after the rockets have ALREADY BEEN BUILT, is offensive and speaks volumes about the allied mindset. You want the ability to specifically target ICs knowing full well that Germany has already pursued a strategy which does not allow them that option. Rockets only have the Strategic Bombardment mission. You want London, which is one of, if not THE highest IC and infra province in all of England to be granted immunity from any major attacks. Berlin will not be afforded any such immunity. Strategic bombers, if they somehow manage to ever get to Berlin, have a game mechanic which allows them to unrealistically avoid Infra if they want to. I will refrain from the historical inaccuracies regarding precision bombing since that is another discussion. I doubt such a thing would have been raised had you not known I was building the rockets and realized what they could do.
“now lobo is threatening to bomb london down to zero regardless of what we as a group has agreed to...well i believe we all agreed to limit that as a group...so if indeed any rockets are able to hit london below the agreed 50 i will simply exit out and wait for an edit to bring it back up…”
Surprise, surprise, threatening to quit again. This the fourth time I believe. Let’s talk about threatening to bomb London. First I’ll simply point to the complaints which are in the above two paragraphs. Second, We as a group have not yet agreed to anything or imposed anything. A quasi-vote was taken in the chat room which had a 4 vs. 4 split, with I, Nixon, Sabbath, and Rdude supporting not imposing a new restriction in the middle of a game. We could not even agree on what the proper level of infrastructure was.

You are trying to paint me as being the villain here, but I would gladly support a reasonable rule so long as it is agreed to pre-game so nations can adjust strategy accordingly at the beginning of the game rather than having the rug pulled out from under them in the middle of the game.

If you are so obsessed with having London remain an ahistorically untouched island of tranquility where all your many many ICs and resources are protected forever, then I will offer you a deal. Withdraw all Allied forces from the European continent and grant Berlin the same immunity. So long as you stay off of the continent and never strike Berlin, I will never attack London.
“and before u scream expo forces...a considerable amount of allied forces are under their original flags...most of the ones under british happened due to accidents or extremitis (we had to retreat out of spain/france in a hurry)…”
This is utter nonsense. Pedal first noticed how many of your forces started strangely transforming into British units. Nixon and I then independently ran tests of our own to try and figure out how this was happening. It is clear from the raw numbers of “British” troops which are appearing on all fronts across the entire globe that you are deliberately exploiting a bug to convert as many units as possible to be British so you can upgrade and reinforce them.

I won’t go in to your oversized airforce, suffice to say it is obvious that it, like your land forces must be artificially inflated through various means. For all the crowing about historical accuracy, you guys have had no problems bloating your forces to an ahistorically massive level at an ahistorically early date.
“...i wil respond no more to these accusations...frankly im getting a bit perturbed at them”
Let’s talk about accusations for a moment, shall we? Earlier in this game you and Cougy falsely accused Pedal of cheating because he noticed your little “conversion” scheme and questioned how the number of UK divisions seemed to be increasing exponentially. Pedal explained how he saw this and Cougy offered a weak apology.

Next you two falsely accused us of cheating again when Pedal and I loaded the 1938 scenario briefly during a break at one of the sessions. We did this because Pedal, I, and Nixon were having an intense argument in the game over, ironically, the effectiveness of ground strikes on planes. Since we were considering carrying out some of our own, we loaded the 1938 scenario and I took France and allowed Germany to attack my airfields to demonstrate something which was at the heart of the argument. Oh, and after this session was over, Nixon, I, and Pedal stayed on after the session and loaded the 1941 scenario to run even more tests. To my knowledge neither one of you have ever recanted your accusations nor have you apologized.

Next, you two openly accused both I and Nixon of cheating falsely YET AGAIN because we were able to sneak some transports out and take Curacao and Liberia. You accused us of looking to see where your ships were. You bragged in this very post about how you have sunk our ships at sea, yet the charge is levied anyway, REPEATEDLY. You sank multiple fully loaded Transports and multiple escort ships which were scouting the waters ahead of those transports specifically to chart a safe path. Likewise, once we did manage to sneak something through, after half a dozen interceptions at sea, if you failed to capitalize on the loss of these islands and respond to them that is your own oversight.

Did you know that on the very mission that finally took Curacao you intercepted the ships involved? They took damage, but I did not send them home to port, I told Nixon, no, we keep going, we head for a different island and a different path. We got there and found an empty beach. Another oversight, you left beaches undefended. We get there and take the island only to find it is out of range of Curacao and we have to sail even further and take a second island a week later.

It was a harrowing series of sea missions which were intercepted 7-8 times and resulted in multiple losses. One glance at the sunk ship screen will show you the result.

If anyone deserves to be accused it is you who so successfully intercepted my ships each session.

I let these accusations go until now. You two, however, did not accept our explanations or issue any apologies for the latter two false accusations.

But this is only the tip of the iceberg. I want to go further and talk about the rest of your atrocious behavior. I asked before this game even began if you two were in it to stay (since you had quit in the past). You said you were, then proceeded to threaten to quit on 4 separate occasions over very minor things which may have put you at a slight disadvantage. You threatened to quit because you didn’t like the way Sabbath was trading, you threatened to quit because you didn’t like the peace deal negotiated between Duck and I, you threatened to quit when the Spanish AI left the allies in a random event. You are now threatening to quit unless London is granted immunity from rocket strikes. Whenever you are faced with something you don’t like, you threaten to quit if you do not get your way. This sort of tactic borders on blackmail and I will not tolerate it any longer.

About the peace deal specifically, Cougy and Gopher had no problems making a similar deal with Hugo. A peculiar deal which allowed the Allies to focus solely on Europe for a full year, despite Japan remaining at war with the Allies. I tried to persuade Hugo not to accept, but ultimately he did. Yet when the Axis negotiates a similar deal with the USSR, which is not even at war yet, you two scream bloody murder and threaten to torpedo the entire game. Talk about a double standard! Oh, but it got worse.

Whenever you two were called on this bad behavior, you erupted into childish fits of rage and lashed out at everyone. After you two pressured Duck into abandoning the peace deal which he and I briefly agreed to Cougy unleashed a profanity laced tirade against me, which was totally unwarranted, which culminated with an emphatic “F*** YOU LOBO!” at which point Cougy left the room.

And finally, you two openly admitted reading the history log when Sabbath forgot to delete it. I find it somewhat suspicious that you were checking the history log after each save anyway. Perhaps you were hoping for such an oversight? Lo and Behold when this oversight did occur you had no qualms about reading the whole thing and then threatening to quit when you discovered something you didn’t like.

When faced with all of this, is it really a surprise that I finally, after six months of play, get a little annoyed by it?


Let’s move on to the one accusation which I finally suggested after months of speculation.

By the way, this is my fifth game with this group and this is the first and only time I have made this kind of accusation against anyone, EVER. I hope it will be the last time.

I suggested last week that one or both of you (cougy and Gopher) peeked at the game save. I believe this for two reasons, one is because of all the past bad behavior you two have demonstrated. I think you two feel that peeking was somehow justified in your minds because of the things which have angered you. You want to win at all costs and you feel that you are justified in doing just that. The second reason is below.

My accusation is not related to the tactics you employed against me. Your attack plan was sound and I am sure you did incorporate many factors when this plan was being devised. I take responsibility for some of what happened. Foreknowledge is useless unless the opponent does what is expected. I don’t deny that some miscalculations were made which allowed you to carry out the attack. I chose to deploy the rockets in the bases you expected before my air cover was sufficient.

If I believed this operation was spur of the moment, or solely the result of good detective work, I might even congratulate you and say well played, but I don’t believe that is the case this time.

I have played in multiplayer games in the past, going all the way back to HOI 1 and HOI2 where there were no rules. I had opponents who openly admitted to loading my country and I came to recognize certain patterns. Back in those days far too many operations were based on trying to time things perfectly, to do something before something was due to deploy, before something was due to arrive, or whatever. Unlike guessing, you notice the precision involved in doing that sort of thing. You notice the perfect timing, and so I asked from time to time “hey, were you deliberately trying to do x before y?” and I would be told things like “yeah, I saw you were building x and had to move fast to prevent you from getting it” or “I saw your units were going to arrive at x so I rushed in before that could happen.”

My accusation results from the timing. As is so often said, timing is everything. Your operation to destroy the rockets was simply timed too well to be the result of speculation. In order to put together this kind of a plan and launch the operation immediately on the arrival date with certainty you needed to know exactly when the Rockets were due to be deployed ahead of time.

I have advanced intelligence techs as well. I can see what you have in your airfields. I have ships sailing about watching your coasts. I have no doubt you knew I was researching the V1, and I have no doubt you saw airbases on the French coast and expected at some point they would be launch sites. Everyone can see these things. But what you do not have is the ability to identify a rocket on an airbase. Rockets do not say “rockets” when you hover over a filled airbase. Also, you do not have the ability to know ahead of time what the level of air resistance deep inside the Axis mainland is. Saying you had a high degree of confidence is correct, you were confident because you knew ahead of time that the level of air resistance at that time was low.

I also watched as your planes were held back in other areas, then built up mysteriously in the few weeks just before rocket deployment was due. When our ships spotted this buildup I told Nixon something to the effect of “They know,” and we started discussing how to further protect the launch sites.

Most importantly, you gave yourself away when you launched air suppression operations in Spain before the rockets were even deployed. You were so intent on making sure that I could not relocate planes without taking damage that you launched your planes and set up your blockade a day or two before the deployment date. When I remembered this, I also remembered I took a save at 0000 hours on the day the rockets were due. I double checked just to be sure I was remembering correctly, and yes, your planes were indeed already over my bases to prevent me from moving.

I suppose you will say now that your “poker skills” are so acute that you were able to sense the arrival of rockets a full 2 days before they were actually deployed, and launched your planes accordingly to make certain that my planes could not move to counter you without taking severe damage.

I’m not buying it.

Lastly, during the discussion about bombing capitals, rockets were suddenly introduced into the conversation by Gopher. Quite obviously the fear of their use was great because he knew I was building them. He pretty much said this-
“…germany because im sure they are all ready are building far in excess of 3 ques or v1's…”
I know you were sure.

This admission aside, the tone of the discussion made it overwhelmingly clear that Gopher’s objections to the use of rockets run much deeper than just the capital issue. He believes that their very construction and use should be severely restricted mid game because rockets are overpowered. He believes it is incredibly unfair that I might be able to inflict severe damage with them which might make it more difficult for him to win. Considering this attitude, I am certain that both Cougy and Gopher felt justified in doing whatever it took to make sure I could not use the rockets, even if that meant checking to see when they were going to arrive and then setting up an elaborate plan (which I unfortunately walked into) to counter them.

I didn’t want to take the conversation here but the sheer number of issues cannot be ignored any longer. I don’t like arguing over things like this, and I certainly don’t like going down the path of one persons word vs. another, because no good can come from such things and no one will ever willingly admit to wrongdoing, but it is the culmination of a whole train of abuses which has persisted for months.

It has to be said.

I want to make it clear that while I am bothered by this persistent bad behavior from Cougy and Gopher I do not hold any personal animus towards them as human beings. It’s like that old expression, “don’t hate the sinner, hate the sin.” I feel the exposure of this behavior is a public service so that every player here now and in the future is well aware of what is going on and knows what to expect from these two. I also hope that by shedding light on this series of events and airing my grievances publicly it might encourage Cougy and Gopher to change for the better.

Duck has been a complete gentleman this entire game. He has treated me with respect and has been very patient, polite, and understanding. I have nothing but positive things to say about the man. I am very thankful for this. I am sure that his asking Gopher to post here was perhaps meant to diffuse what he saw as a pretty unpleasant situation. I wish it had, but when I am faced with such an grossly insulting work of fiction I must respond to it.

I will apologize to Nixon, Sabbath, Hugo, Rdude, Duck, and Pedal if they feel this post was in any way out of line. I am not trying to escalate the situation and I have nothing but respect for you guys, you have been great this entire game. But I will repeat again, it has to be said.

All this finally being said, at this point, I just want to finish the game. I’ve played with and without rules and I had loads of fun either way (so long as such things were made clear prior to the start). I have never stopped having fun playing the actual game, which is why I have continued to show up week after week, month after month, for several years. I am committed to playing on win or lose and I will show up for the next session barring anything unforeseen.

I truly hope that the Tuesday game continues in the future, the issues are worked out, and that we will never see a repeat of what happened in Game 14. This is certainly not the last Tuesday game.
"Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." - Thomas Paine, "The American Crisis"

cougy
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 57064Post cougy
Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:22 pm

Sweet Jesus, 2 walls of text back-to-back. Lobo, those were Gopher's opinions not mine so I dont enjoy you attempting to lump me into to them (that is not to say I agree or don't agree with them).

In the end it looks like both of you are being a touch self righteous and holier-than-thou. Both of you feel that the other side is/has done things fishy. How about we just drop it there and leave it. This game has been off the tracks from the get go and there is nothing to be done to change it so lets just finish it out.

That being said :), I do have to address one of your many slights against me...I did not bomb Rome with some purpose of doing the supply bug. I did not even know the supply bug existed at that point. The reasons behind my bombing of Rome was to draw some of the axis planes away from Spain. By your statement of "intense axis aircover" I acheived my goal.

gogopher
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 57065Post gogopher
Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:37 pm

bro u are so wildly off base on just about everything u posted i wont waste my time pointing out the flaws and rants one at a time...ill just hit the highlights

i have done nothing 'magical' in my playing or play style and not once have i openly accused u of cheating or loading up saves...what i have done is respond to ur lame attempts at blacking our names...and yes point to case i cant see 'rockets' on the map...what i can see if 16+ air units placed on an airfield...which give a high probablity of them being rockets...especially since those are the only airbases that reach london and other major ind centers...and no we didnt magically make planes appear...we BUILT them in england...and then moved them up to the front when they were in groups of 4...we still have the exact same number of air units in spain as we have had for more than a year...and we have taken some planes from the med that is true...TAKEN THEM TO ASIA...so get of ur high horse

...and about sea intercetpions...well lets just say we have over 20 ships of all types scouring the atlantic for ur little fleets u send out...the sheer volume of ships and planes out as sea is probably more than the entire axis fleets combined at this point...what im amazed at is ur transports made it as far as they did

oh and for ur info...our airforce is that size because we built it...we inherited a total of 12 interceptors from poland and switzerland and the netherlands...the rest we built....

and expo forces well im done with that explanation every bit as much as u are about ur little czech buddys

edit:

and lets add one thing...u and pedal vetoed me taking brazil...when the allies consisted of two players who were at war with the entire axis...3 major power players plus neibling/nixon at various times...so i state again no to china...i feel for hugy but the fact is that atm the sides are relatively balanced...so again no second comp running china...much as u and pedal vetoed it i object to this random addition...

and i have not threatened to quit if u bomb london...i said i will simply exit the game and await the edit we all agreed to...formal or informal a vote was taken and it was 5-4 against total bombing...and to remind u lobo the allies did not bring rome to under 20inf...we stopped bombing prior to that point

Richard Nixon
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 57076Post Richard Nixon
Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:05 pm

I am posting to state that I endorse the contents of Lobo's post. The airstrikes that took place last session seemed suspicious.

I'd also like to echo Lobo's complaints about the UK absconding with seemingly the greater part of the militaries of its allies.

I realize that in all scenarios the UK is fairly weak and needs to beef up its defenses. I have no objection to the UK taking and using at least some of the military units of its allies but I think it goes beyond the pale when the Allies do things like preserve the entire French army, airforce, and navy on top of activating their wartime ICs early by intervening in Spain.
"Know that there are only three things that men respect: the lash that descends, the yoke that breaks and the sword that slays. By the power and terror of these you may conquer the earth." Richard Milhous Nixon in his first inaugural speech.

cougy
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 57078Post cougy
Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:59 pm

The war in Spain was in response to the German DOW on Norway, Danemark, and Sweden in 1938. Good for goose good for gander. Or is only okay if it benefits one side not the other?

gogopher
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 57084Post gogopher
Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:40 am

well u can think its suspicious all u want...i have explained our tactics all i care too...as to the entire french army/air/navy...well yup i managed to extract the entire navy and airforce (hell i built 2xt4 bb's and 1xt4 bc in africa after france fell)...as to the army sorry if u had been in the game the entire time nixon u would have seen the vast majority of the french and spanish army die in france...i saved all the armor/motorized/mnt and maybe 9inf divs...i lost well over 50 spanish/frnch/uk divs of all types in france and early spain....but i seem to remember the allies in last game absorbing and expoing pretty much everything they could get their hands on...funny those same allies are now axis and now crying because we did the exact same thing

i have since sold diplomatically the entire frnch airforce to the uk...so no more frnch planes...the vast majority of the frnch ground forces where absorbed by britain by one happenstance or the other...navy is all expo english now...oh and that was all agreed before we started the game....just like germany expo-ing i imagine all their minors and most likely a majority of the italians...

so im glad to see the breakdown is normal....lobo and nixon (axis) all in agreement....cougy and gogo (allies) all in agreement...hugy and duck the peacemakers and sabbath remaining neutral...ah it does a body good to see yet another wasted thread on a subject not worthy of consideration...you have zero proof or evidence that we have done anything out of sorts (we havent) and are simply ranting and throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks...there has been so much suspicious activity done by the (european)axis i could make my own 'wall-o'-text' to call u all out on it...why bother...in the end you have your beliefs and we have the ours...and it seems as if they arent the same...i didnt have to cheat to damn near blow your airforce up...i simply had to watch patterns and habits and act when it was advantageous to do so...with overwhelming numbers and odds...something i have been doing all game in gibraltar...oh and if u want confrimation as to our fleets scouting for random transports ask sabbath he is an ally and can tell u the sheer volume of naval forces we have out patrolling (oh and yeah most of them are french (expo) ships...but the planes are english)

bah im done explaining to people who have made up their minds and replying to senseless posts that are simply propaganda tools for one alliance or the other...learn to play the game better and you wont have to resort to name calling and baseless accusations...

El Duck
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 57093Post El Duck
Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:24 am

Why in the world do we continue this flawed and contentious game? Both the Axis and the Allies are convinced that the other side is loading up the game. Both Expeditionary forces and the Czech event seem seem to have to be discussed every second post. Now we get to enjoy a friendly give and take on V-1s and the capital supply exploit.

The Czech event is part of the game and is unusual but legal. We agreeded to use Ex forces despite both Huggy and I strong dissent because of the very exploits that we are now seeing. IMO, what the allies are doing is allowed in this very unusual game. Both the Axis and Allies make a case that the other side is loading them up and both deny it and explain how they have done what they have based on available legal intel. We need to let this one drop. There is no way to tell for sure and to continue to argue about it just poisons the game further. IMO, both sides should pledge that they will not load up the other side and and we go forward or we stop. How can you play we someone you think is cheating? There is no point to it.

We need to solve the capital supply issue. This is a serious, call it what you want, bug, exploit, issue. As I understand the problem, when the capital infrastructure is reduced below 20% all units of the country regardless where they are go out of supply and stay there until the capital agains goes above 20%. Units even in other continents in a province with a supply depot go out of supply. Units out of supply move slower, fight poorly and eventually die if not put back into supply. I have not experienced this first hand but Huggy has and I understand that is what happenned to him. If I do not have this right, please post the correct results. to my poor mind this seems to be a game ending exploit. If all you have to do is reduce a capital to less than 20% infrastructure then all you need to do in nuke, bomb or rocket an opponent's capital to less than that, keep it there and it is all over. IMO this makes no sense.

My suggestion was:

1. You can reduce the infrastructure of any province other than the capital by any method to zero and keep it there.
2. You can reduce the capital to say 30% and keep it there.

We as a group need to resolve this issue before we can continue and we should do it in this forum while we have time to run tests and discuss it in a fairly calm fashion. It seems to me that once we get into game ranger tempers seem to get in the way and we can't resolve complex problems.

I truly think we should end this game now, not because it is not fun, but because it has become so contentious. If we can't find a way out of this problem that we can all live with I don't see how we can go on. If we can work together and find a joint solution perhaps that would provide a start to ending the poisonous atmosphere that now surroounds our game.

I am available to play any day this week up to Saturday, 4 AUG. After that, I will be out until Thursday, 9 Aug.

sabbath
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 57094Post sabbath
Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:20 am

Couple points...

#1 I thought we had reached a satisfactory agreement/rule on the infrastructure. We have solved it as best we can, there is no way to edit the game files, so it must have a house rule, which we have done.
(Now that everyone knows about the effects, players will likely place higher value on building air cover for capital protection as well).


#2 Unfortunately the contention seems to be not with this particular game but a personality conflict between players. Starting a new game with these same players now would certainly carry over lingering resentment and attitudes that would inevitably flare up again. Ending/starting anew now would not suddenly wipe the slate clean, so we may as well finish. Lobo has stated he will finish for Axis, and I would do the same for Allies.

I am not a psychology major, and I do not have any solution for the intrapersonal issues.
Maybe this group is suffering without strong (or even clear) leadership after the retirement of Jones and the leave of absence of pedal?
This would be about the time Jones would slam on the brakes, turn to the squabbling children in the back seat, and threaten to knock their heads together if he hears one more word out of either of them. Perhaps that is why he retired. :grin:
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El Duck
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Re: GAME 14, THE LAST TUESDAY AOD GAME

Post: # 57095Post El Duck
Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:06 am

sabbath wrote:1 I thought we had reached a satisfactory agreement/rule on the infrastructure. We have solved it as best we can, there is no way to edit the game files, so it must have a house rule, which we have done.
I did not realize that we do have an agreement. Could someone please restate it so that we all know, understand and actually agree. i am so glad to hear that. i sure hope that sabbath is correct.

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