EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

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El Duck
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EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99666Post El Duck
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:35 pm

We have permitted edits of our puppets and AI controlled allies for some time now. In some ways it has added to everyone's enjoyment of the game and allowed a further dimension. I don't think there has been any edits that I would consider unfair nor do I think that they have unbalanced the game. However, I am not sure that they are necessary. The AI does a fairly good job and while it may not do exactly what we want, it decisions are reasonable.

Not all of our players, including me, have the ability or inclination for edits. We have to rely on others. By relaying on others we have to divulge exactly what we want done. Players doing their own edits normally only reveal what has been done in very general terms.

I would favor not allowing edits or loading of puppets and non-player controlled countries. That would give us an even playing field as we would all depend on the AI for all non-player controlled countries. As stated earlier, the AI does not do a bad job. Please think about this.

This has been suggested before and in the past most players have wanted to continue editing. I expect that is what most want and if so, we will continue to allow it. In that case, I do think we should have some guidelines as to what is allowed and what is not. We should also spell out what information needs to be provided with each edit.

We should allow unlimiting building of infrastructure and all possible provincial buildings and installations such as forts, airbases and the like. I am not sure if it is possible to allow one country to build them and then place them in a different country by edit. If so this should not be allowed. The builds may only be placed within the building country. When this type of edit is done it should only be necessary for the player to state that he edited such and such a country to improve country infrastructure. No additional specifics should be necessary.

The build of any type of unit should also be allowed. For this type of build the player needs to announce specifically the type of unit(s) being ordered but not the quantity or number of lines. For example, it would suffice to say that I did an edit for country X to build transport ships and INF or tanks and Naval bombers.

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Emperor Liberty
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Re: EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99667Post Emperor Liberty
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:01 am

I too had my thoughts on the fairness of edits. And as of last campaign, I can understand why especially duck was troubling with allowing such edits, because he had to rely on desev for the USA edits. A player who is now at war with the USA.
I would suggest the following solutions:
1.) Before the start of the campaign, each alliance should be assigned one skilled editor (them being desev and Jarski and maybe someone else) whom we entrust with our edits.
2.) We limit the edits to only bug fixing and trade. In my opinion is it already very balanced to have 3 axis players and 3/4 allied players able to build as they please. Allowing the same for UK, Italian and German puppets to flush all their manpower into units by edits would make for an unbalanced, and above all unrealistic game, especially if we consider that historically, there wasnt an actual draft in the UK colonies and German/Italian occupied territories.

El Duck
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Re: EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99668Post El Duck
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:41 am

It seems that Liberty and I are thinking along the same lines. In addition, I could support edits to allow countries to build or cancel factories and infrastructure but that would be about it.

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Jarski
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Re: EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99685Post Jarski
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:45 am

Emperor Liberty wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:01 am
1.) Before the start of the campaign, each alliance should be assigned one skilled editor (them being desev and Jarski and maybe someone else) whom we entrust with our edits.
Yes.
El Duck wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:35 pm
I am not sure if it is possible to allow one country to build them and then place them in a different country by edit. If so this should not be allowed.
Human players can build various constructions and place them in allied territory, as per our rules. AI's do not stockpile buildings or deploy them to foreign territory, they always immediately deploy to own territory. I guess you mean that a puppet would build, say, airbases for its overlord? Seems an awfull lot of trouble when one could just build them by themselves, but yeah, suppose that can be disallowed.

Also note that newly created nations struggle greatly with their infra serials, without edits they have none, in fact. If one wants to ensure an AI nation keeps building up infra to its crucial provinces, an edit is an absolute must.
Emperor Liberty wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:01 am
Allowing the same for UK, Italian and German puppets to flush all their manpower into units by edits would make for an unbalanced, and above all unrealistic game, especially if we consider that historically, there wasnt an actual draft in the UK colonies and German/Italian occupied territories.
Well the thing is, they pretty much flush out their manpower in any case, thats what the generic AI is designed to do. I just think its better we can have a say in what units they flush out.


Otherwise, as an editor, my opinion is probably no surprise. For me its about variation. If we do only simple edits on the AI nations, in every single game, they will pretty much build the same stuff, with zero variation and zero ability to meet unconventional threats.

Humans have the chance to go wild with their build strategies, and I think the AI's should be allowed to mirror those strategies. In last game Axis was thoroughly impressed with the Allies usage of the ANZAC as an aircraft factory. It was a clever move and one of the fresh new twists that made the game more interesting.

In last game Bonaparte was an enthusiastic Aircraft Proponent for the Axis puppets, everyone were building interceptors, I wouldve been more like a traditional Infantry Proponent. But regardless of our style of play, I find it important that we can reflect that style of play to our puppets and allied nations.

I would find it very clumsy to not allow any edits, nor very historical. I can imagine a situation where Axis begins a massive naval construction early on to take on the RN. If UK catches a clue of this, I would want them to have the ability to make edits on ANZAC, Canada etc. to help them combat this new unconventional threat with some auxiliary ships.

The AIs generally do a good job, yes, but they are essentially designed to be good on a very traditional way, with no capability to respond to surprising new threats by switching their unit types or by beginning to build new defensive buildings.

That being said, I am of course all for more transparency in the edits, and I definately think there should never be a need to edit anything mid-session unless its some very dire bug etc. which has immediate impact on some warplans or so on.

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Re: EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99696Post El Duck
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:51 pm

We have had this discussion before. I realize that many of our players get a lot of enjoyment improving their minor countries by edits. I had decided to go along and only started this thread just in case our editors or others wanted to eliminate or significantly curtail edits. I was very surprised when Liberty agreeded with me.

DES has been particularly kind in doing edits for me and other too have helped out in the past. I am not strongly opposed to continuing with our current editing policy with limits. I am also fine with mostly going with just the AI with the exceptions Liberty mentioned.

I would very much like to hear what others think. DES must be getting tired of all the edits.

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Mr_B0narpte
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Re: EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99700Post Mr_B0narpte
Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:59 pm

I've been a big fan of edits, having done many myself. But as I haven't played in so long, I'm not really sure I should weigh in on this big issue.

El Duck
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Re: EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99705Post El Duck
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:51 am

I consider you a member in good standing of our AOD group. I personally greatly value your ideas and opinions. Please give us the benefit of your thoughts on this issue.

Please also consider joining our new game. If you still have your normal extremely busy real life schedule perhaps you could take a minor country and come when you have free time. Either alliance would be lucky to be able to take advantage of your ideas. For once I would like it to be the side I am on!

Lastly, please take a look at the approved rule thread. I have somehow messed it up. Maybe you can figure out to get it back to the way you previously had it.

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Mr_B0narpte
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Re: EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99713Post Mr_B0narpte
Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:32 am

El Duck wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:51 am
I consider you a member in good standing of our AOD group. I personally greatly value your ideas and opinions. Please give us the benefit of your thoughts on this issue.
Thanks, I agree with Jarski completely to be honest. It adds so much flavour and strategy being able to edit the minor nations. One of the biggest problems with the AI is it cannot adapt to a changing situation, whereas ours editing fixes that.
El Duck wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:51 am
Please also consider joining our new game. If you still have your normal extremely busy real life schedule perhaps you could take a minor country and come when you have free time. Either alliance would be lucky to be able to take advantage of your ideas. For once I would like it to be the side I am on!
Thank you for the kind words. I think I will. You're missing out playing the Allies in the Cold War gone Hot, it's pretty brutal for the Comintern right now!
El Duck wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:51 am
Lastly, please take a look at the approved rule thread. I have somehow messed it up. Maybe you can figure out to get it back to the way you previously had it.
I'll give it a look see.

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Mr_B0narpte
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Re: EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99714Post Mr_B0narpte
Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:35 am

Regarding editing the rules, you'd need to enter "[/spoiler]" right before "Military Doctrines and Espionage/Intelligence" to bring back all the different categories on the main post.

If you open up the editing for that thread, I'm happy to do it for you.

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Re: EDITS OF PUPPETS AND AI CONTROLLED ALLIES

Post: # 99716Post El Duck
Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:51 pm

Thanks. I think that I did it.

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